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Diary Rescue and Open Thread

How about a late night open thread?

We've also got some new diaries up:

And only in Texas, an HIV homeless man gets 35 years for spitting on a police officer. Now 42, he must serve half before being eligible for parole.

Have something else you want to talk about? Go right ahead.

Comments now closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    What do people think about Larry (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by MarkL on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:09:24 PM EST
    Johnson's claim about the videos of Michele?
    link

    Lame, lame, lame (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:13:44 PM EST
    I haven't like everything about Mrs. Obama, but this is very lame.  I for one will get really pissed off if the Republicans try to beat Obama by going after his wife.  

    [ Parent ]
    Well, complaining will do no good (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by MarkL on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:15:50 PM EST
    if the story is in fact true. It would be all over for Obama. Do the tapes exist? I don't think Larry Johnson would lie about what sources tell him, but they might lie to him.

    [ Parent ]
    I am not saying it won't hurt him (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:17:29 PM EST
    I just don't like it.  I can't articulate it very well, because frankly I don't find her very likeable, but I just think it should be about Obama and not his wife.

    [ Parent ]
    The Dems lost the high ground (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:27:10 PM EST
    on the spouse issue.  Elizabeth Edwards, McCain's wife, Bill Clinton.... Dems have gone after spouses the time around, they are now open season.

    [ Parent ]
    eh... (none / 0) (#44)
    by Alec82 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:35:54 PM EST
    ...President Clinton is in a different category.  He himself has acknowledged as much.  Cindy McCain would not be open to the same kind of criticism if she had not attacked Michelle Obama with her "I've always been proud of my country" remark.  

     I don't really remember anyone going after Elizabeth Edwards...perhaps if you could provide a link? The media questions she received about her cancer treatments and his decision to run were awful, but I don't remember Democrats going after her.

     The Clintons, by their very nature, are a special case.  Attacks on Chelsea, of course, or any of the candidate's children, are beyond the pale.    

    [ Parent ]

    Nope, all the same category (none / 0) (#54)
    by Cream City on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:42:57 PM EST
    for these purposes.  They're all "public figures."  There are definitions of that for legal cases -- but look at it this way: They all get Secret Service protection.  That's for public figures.

    [ Parent ]
    Please if Cindy McCain is fair game (none / 0) (#67)
    by RalphB on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:47:51 PM EST
    for saying she's always been proud of her country, then obviously Michelle Obama is fair game.  Just because more people will be angered by her saying she's proud of her country for the very first time doesn't make it unfair.


    [ Parent ]
    eh... part two (none / 0) (#79)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:52:51 PM EST
    Cindy McCain would not be open to the same kind of criticism if she had not attacked Michelle Obama with her "I've always been proud of my country" remark.  

    Michelle wouldn't be open for attack if she hadn't made remarks that put herself in the middle of politics... scratch Bill's eyes out, just joking... can't take care of her own house.... would have to think about campaigning for Clinton, tone.... America is just downright mean....

    No, the Clinton's aren't a special case but you can try and get the Repubs and the media to go along with you.

    [ Parent ]

    Then you are saying... (none / 0) (#97)
    by Alec82 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:04:18 AM EST
    ...that the attacks on Hillary Clinton in the 1990s were legitimate?

     I will agree to a limited extent: a candidate's spouse is fair game to the extent that how they use them during their campaign reveals how they view their spouse (think about Laura Bush's muted role) or how they would govern.  But I'm not electing President Clinton (as I am reminded by the Clinton campaign when it matters) or Michelle Obama, or Cindy McCain.  I'm electing the next president of the United States.  

     I don't know why you think Bill is no different from other spouses.  When he speaks and campaigns on her behalf, he is doing so not only as a spouse, but as a former president of the United States.    

    [ Parent ]

    You started this by (none / 0) (#149)
    by RalphB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:40:46 AM EST
    saying that Cindy McCain was fair game.  WTF is your point?


    [ Parent ]
    Ms. McCain... (none / 0) (#165)
    by Alec82 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:03:59 AM EST
    ...attacked Ms. Obama pretty openly, and in a pretty petty way.  

     On the other hand, I will agree that the comment made by Michelle re: Bill was pretty weird, and her comment about having to evaluate Clinton was distasteful from a partisan's perspective.  

     Overall, I just think that a candidate's spouse should be left out of the attack machine.  That includes Ms. McCain.  At the same time, when your spouse is a former two-term president, and you are running in part on experience from that presidency, the rules of the game are different.  There are no set rules, of course, but it should be clear that the scope of scrutiny is not the same.

     And btw, Ralph, I resent your rather insulting attitude.  I'm not the enemy here.  And I am tired of being painted as such by personality partisans. I've worked hard on every campaign, and I will do so no matter who wins this nomination.  Anything I post that does not toe the Clinton partisan line is attacked, and usually pretty unfairly.  Please don't be snide.

    [ Parent ]

    michelle put herself out there with (none / 0) (#214)
    by hellothere on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:56:50 AM EST
    HER COMMENTS. so kindly get off it!

    [ Parent ]
    Matt Stoller carried dirty water for the media (none / 0) (#145)
    by Josey on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:34:57 AM EST
    by posting a DK diary accusing John and Elizabeth Edwards of racism!  Race-baiting Obamamites continued the dirty work along with spreading rumors Elizabeth was dying.

    http://tinyurl.com/4gfpft

    Edward's Would Be Great If He Weren't Racist??
    by david mizner on Tue, 08/14/2007 - 13:13
    Matt Stoller has never been the most cautious or thorough of bloggers, but his recent post, "What Bugs Me About John Edwards," is shoddy even for him. He accuses both John and Elizabeth Edwards of racism.

    [ Parent ]

    That stupid brouhaha? (none / 0) (#203)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:14:04 AM EST
    That was the lamest excuse for a fight ever!

    It didn't attack Michelle's character, it may have questioned her patriotism.  But hey, I question my patriotism every day.

    And that was somehow hitting below the belt?  It was just politics and the smartest thing to have done was to let it go.  Good thing Michelle doesn't rise to the bait as readily as Obama does or the Right would have a ball seeing who they could get a bigger rise out of.

    Both Michelle and Obama have a tendency to get too easily riled.  If they can't control it, the right will exploit that for all it is worth.

    [ Parent ]

    michelle isn't off limits due to the (none / 0) (#215)
    by hellothere on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:58:10 AM EST
    fact that she has put herself out there with her comments.

    [ Parent ]
    The funny thing is that the media (none / 0) (#220)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:08:06 AM EST
    barely made a mention of it.

    Clinton knows how to pick her fights.  If she and Bill had become incandescent every time someone came up with a new "racist" interpretation of a comment, they both would have been portrayed as not only "racist" but dangerously unstable.

    Obama/Bush's comment?  Shouldn't have been an issue unless Obama wants to be the Outrage Candidate.  It's just so, so easy to see this happening with Obama as the nominee.

    [ Parent ]

    I am not so sure (none / 0) (#48)
    by Serene1 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:38:09 PM EST
    That Michelle is off limits completely. And if such a tape does exist then it disproves Obama's contention that he or his family never heard those"controversial" sermons. It will also give legs to the theory that while Obama was o.k about Wright bashing whites, jews, clintons and others the only time he denounced and rejected Wright outright was when Wright bashed him.

    [ Parent ]
    We shouldn't be told about a racist? (none / 0) (#188)
    by SueBonnetSue on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:30:42 AM EST
    One who wants to be First Lady and represent our country?  

    Can anyone believe that Obama doesn't share her views?  Who marries a racist, unless feel the same way?  This is just creepy.  

    [ Parent ]

    It sounds too awful to be true -- but (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Cream City on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:30:38 PM EST
    then, this is the woman who said "ain't no black people in Iowa" and -- twice in one day, both on tape -- said she never before had been proud of her country.  And that sure sounded like it was right from Wright.

    That there is something more to come out from the Republicans, I don't question at all.  It's just a question of when -- and as they now see Clinton as tougher to beat, I would bet their oppo research won't come out until after the convention.

    And maybe not even until October -- the "October surprises" we have seen before, so there will not be time for speeches about race and grandma and more.

    [ Parent ]

    Nancy Reagan (none / 0) (#179)
    by SueBonnetSue on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:14:05 AM EST
    We didn't go after her for all her nutty horoscope crap.  

    Ok, maybe we did.  But just a little.  

    [ Parent ]

    President married to a racist, (none / 0) (#186)
    by SueBonnetSue on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:27:45 AM EST
    Is okay with you?  

    Who would marry a racist, other than another racist?  

    I have a HUGE issue with a racist in the White House, whether it's the President or his spouse.  

    [ Parent ]

    Let's See Them.... (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:21:10 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I agree... (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:27:35 PM EST
    I hope they don't exist, but if they do, then we need them exposed now before the nomination is sealed.  I'm not asserting that it is true, but Johnson claims to have three sources, and he talks about how O'Vilely and his ilk are dropping hints about a bombshell.

    Of course, the Regressives are usually full of it, but their track record in winning elections (if not actual governance, where they are teh suck) worries me, as it should anyone who supports liberal values.

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    If The Tapes Exist, It Is No Wonder The Repugs (none / 0) (#45)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:37:09 PM EST
    want obama as the nominee.  They will skewer him.

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks everyone (none / 0) (#22)
    by PainKillerJayne on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:27:06 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Obama's reporting position: I never (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:27:39 PM EST
    listened to Michelle, but, if I had, I would have called her out for talking like that.

    [ Parent ]
    Or...I am denouncing what my wife has said; (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:30:53 PM EST
    she was under the spell of Rev. Wright, whom I have also denounced.  I'm barack obama and I approve this message.

    [ Parent ]
    stop making me laugh, I am trying to (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:34:44 PM EST
    be objective and kind!

    [ Parent ]
    bjorn...forget being objective and kind....it is (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:38:26 PM EST
    overrated... :)

    [ Parent ]
    Please don't let him call her (none / 0) (#40)
    by Cream City on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:33:27 PM EST
    a typical black person!  I don't think she is anymore than he is.  None of my AA colleagues ever would talk the way that she has done in front of cameras.  

    [ Parent ]
    Actually, she is probably more (none / 0) (#93)
    by oculus on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:01:57 AM EST
    typical than he is.  She was raised on the South Side of Chicago; mom stayed home and raised the kids; Dad worked for the local government; Michelle and her brother both went to public schools through high school.  

    [ Parent ]
    yep she has walked the talk (none / 0) (#159)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:55:55 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Sounds like nearly every white person in America (none / 0) (#181)
    by SueBonnetSue on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:17:31 AM EST
    Other than southside Chicago, what makes her a typical black person?  Having attended Princeton and Yale?  Married to a Senator?  

    [ Parent ]
    Obama: I never had interc0urse with that woman! (none / 0) (#172)
    by Ellie on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:27:27 AM EST
    ... and if I did I barely listened!

    [ Parent ]
    Saw the claim on another site (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:34:19 PM EST
    as well.

    Obama stopped Hillary from being able to speak to even the most legitimate differences between the two of their policy plans by painting her out to be the negative Clinton. I think he was practicing to see how he could stop the Republicans.

    But, now McCain is playing Obama's game, and he's playing it better. He has even been moving toward the center so far, the key topics are showing minimal difference in their policies. It's hard not to laugh.

    I think the threat of the videos could be just enough to make them nervous, because we all know they were really in the church for plenty of those podium pounding sermons.
     

    [ Parent ]

    Johnson's in the sewer with Rove. (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Ben Masel on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:04:03 AM EST
    He's got what? Unsubstantiated rumors of Republicans spreading unsubstantiated rumors.

    [ Parent ]
    But credible rumors. That's the problem. (none / 0) (#106)
    by MarkL on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:06:23 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Credible because? (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Ben Masel on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:30:47 AM EST
    not because he's got the video. He's at this point a willing conduit for Republican smears.

    [ Parent ]
    keep repeating to yourself the following: (none / 0) (#119)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:13:51 AM EST
    Mathematically inevitable nominee.  Then sleep soundly!

    [ Parent ]
    Please, God? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Shainzona on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:12:40 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    this doesn't work (none / 0) (#154)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:48:42 AM EST
    I tried it with Kerry the night before the election on 2004.  Prayed to God he would win.  Here we are now.

    Saying "Please Rove!" might yield better results for this.

    [ Parent ]

    who knows? (none / 0) (#9)
    by RalphB on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:17:37 PM EST
    Since the GOP probably bought a truck load of those tapes months ago, if there's anything in them they'll find it.  This doesn't seem fair but politics is a contact sport.

    [ Parent ]
    OK the silly (none / 0) (#10)
    by PainKillerJayne on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:18:27 PM EST
    Question. What tapes? I want to know.

    [ Parent ]
    apparently a tape of Michele (none / 0) (#13)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:21:06 PM EST
    taling like Rev Wright in church

    [ Parent ]
    sorry - talking, not taling! (none / 0) (#17)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:22:28 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    But the one that was shown on the link (none / 0) (#72)
    by BarnBabe on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:49:41 PM EST
    Is on the CNN web site. I mentioned it to Jeralyn in  another diary of hers on Conventions. Is there another one?

    [ Parent ]
    Wasn't That The HARDBALL Logo In That (none / 0) (#83)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:54:29 PM EST
    video?

    [ Parent ]
    that is just a GOP ad in Tennessee (none / 0) (#131)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:23:50 AM EST
    they looped her saying "for the first time in my adult life, I'm proud of my country" and then had some wingnuts saying how they were indeed proud and why.

    The tape that is being rumored about has not been released or seen and may not even exist.  But supposedly it is of her talking bad about white people.

    [ Parent ]

    ok....thanks (none / 0) (#193)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:14:25 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I don't believe it (none / 0) (#35)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:31:28 PM EST
    The Repubs are not that good at pretending they are going to lose.  You don't have top people running around saying 'we have problems', they are worried about turnout, low registrations, Bush fatigue (disgust)... if they had something, someone, somewhere would have a big cheshire grin.  Someone would be showing some confidence for Nov, but I don't get that impression from the Repubs at all.

    [ Parent ]
    But they can't get money NOW (none / 0) (#38)
    by MarkL on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:32:38 PM EST
    .. it doesn't matter if they have a magic bullet for October if they can't fundraise off it.

    [ Parent ]
    Republicans don't need money now! (none / 0) (#183)
    by SueBonnetSue on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:20:15 AM EST
    They can sit back and watch us squabble.  They'll get the money when they need it.  Lots of rich people in that party.  

    [ Parent ]
    I know but isn't Bill some how more (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:24:40 PM EST
    fair game because he has been President. There is just something creepy about making his wife the issue.  Again, I get why people don't connect with her but she is a neophyte who wasn't even that excited about her husband running.  I know they went after Hillary all the time as Bill's wife, so I am sure they will do it. But I did not like it when they did it to Hillary.

    Michelle is fair game. (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by AX10 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:27:57 PM EST
    She has had no problem taking her share of hits at Hillary and Bill.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree with you on this. (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by eleanora on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:32:03 PM EST
    Hitting family members just seems out of bounds to me unless the concern is directly related to the candidate's job performance or qualifications. And the misogyny directed against Hillary has also been in play against Michelle in some quarters. I hate that.

    [ Parent ]
    It sucks, but don't forget . . . (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by nycstray on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:47:53 PM EST
    they've been doing this to Hillary LONG before she ran for the nomination. And Obama seems fine with it happening to her now . . . Kinda makes me not want to jump up and defend Michelle. Of course it won't stop me {sigh}

    I haven't heard much/any sexist remarks towards Michelle, but I have heard comments about her attitude/what she says.

    [ Parent ]

    I know Hillary's been hit with the worst (5.00 / 4) (#118)
    by eleanora on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:13:44 AM EST
    of it, and some from Michelle herself. But I still think we have to call it out, no matter who it's aimed at. TL doesn't put up with sexism towards Michelle, but I've seen it quite a bit on other blogs. And the media tends to talk about her in infuriatingly patronizing ways, which just makes me want to scream. Her attitude is kind of annoying, but they either treat her with disdain or act like she's an amusing pet. And then they discuss her clothes, just like they do with Hillary. Grrrr >:(

    [ Parent ]
    Not for nothing... (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:17:33 AM EST
    but the clothes thing is interesting since there seems to be so much intent to style her after Jackie O.

    Though I have to say...the pink outfit? I could've done without. Every time I see that dress I think Dallas Nov. 1963.

    The semiotic strategy is pretty obvious.

    [ Parent ]

    Ted Kennedy as VP (none / 0) (#127)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:20:09 AM EST
    it would allow for signs that say: Obama/Kennedy

    How much do you want to bet this is what it's all about?  The Kennedy legacy will grow by leaps and bounds if that name is forever linked in history to the first African American Presidency.

    Obama/Kennedy.  It looks good, on paper.

    [ Parent ]

    I have no response... (none / 0) (#129)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:22:31 AM EST
    ::shakes head::

    All this time...Ted's the one wanting the position for himself?

    [ Parent ]

    He'll have to wrestle with Richardson first (none / 0) (#141)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:31:53 AM EST
    this event ight take place in the woods of Northern California, I hear.  Richardson likes to give speeches around there.

    Being cryptic is fun. Do I sound like Larry Johnson yet or do I need more foil?

    [ Parent ]

    You need a bit more foil... (none / 0) (#199)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:09:12 AM EST
    Though the fight in the woods thing reminded me a lot of the whole Bohemian Grove story.

    [ Parent ]
    I would need 3 doubles before I'd (none / 0) (#133)
    by MarkL on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:25:43 AM EST
    even begin to contemplate that scenario

    [ Parent ]
    I'm just drunk on life I guess (none / 0) (#144)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:34:37 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Influences on the candidate (none / 0) (#109)
    by Cream City on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:08:21 AM EST
    and those around the candidate, especially a candidate who does not make clear his/her own stands, are significant.  They do directly relate to potential performance as president.

    After all, the Reverend Wright was, we were told, "like family."

    [ Parent ]

    I get that, I do. (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by eleanora on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:48:50 AM EST
    And I'm more afraid than ever that McCain's got some game we hadn't seen before, and we're in trouble if Senator Obama is the nominee. But I just hate that religion and his wife might be what takes him out. Hate it. I wish his backers had properly vetted him in 06 so he could have waited a cycle or two and get some of these problems handled before running :(

    [ Parent ]
    Remember (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by dissenter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:34:16 PM EST
    The picture on TV where the Obama's were looking so sad after the Wright stuff really blew up. I thought at the time Michelle looked way more down than Obama. And then she disappeared off the scene for the most part. Maybe they know this is coming and that is the reason they lining up all the SDs  in such a panic.

    If this is true, it is indeed a game changer. I don't care what congressman they paid off (I mean the pac money donations) but no way they are gonna stick with that.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama may just be that much into himself.. (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by AX10 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:37:16 PM EST
    that he would sink the party in the fall just to get  
    a chance to run for President.
    I do remember that Michelle made herself MIA after the Wright blow-up.  It also could explain the rush to end this thing.

    [ Parent ]
    you are right about that, she has been out (none / 0) (#51)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:40:15 PM EST
    there but very low profile.

    [ Parent ]
    if he becomes the Democratic nominee (none / 0) (#160)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:57:10 AM EST
    guaranteed to be in the encyclopedia... forever!

    [ Parent ]
    Not Saying It Is A Good Thing To Do, But (none / 0) (#27)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:27:53 PM EST
    politics is politics and once she opened her mouth and insinuated herself in the fray, she is fair game, or so it has been in the past.  How could she not know what she was getting into?  And she has had plenty to say about the opposition, so it would be very hard for me to feel sorry for her.  

    [ Parent ]
    If Cindy McCain was (none / 0) (#185)
    by SueBonnetSue on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:25:38 AM EST
    Railing against Blacks, would that be off limits?   would you say that shouldn't be an issue in the election if our President is married to a racist who hates Black people?  

    I have a HUGE problem with a President married to someone who is a racist.  I don't care what race they hate.  It's just plain wrong.   Plus, I would have to wonder if the candidate agreed with his wife.  

    Who would marry a racist, other than another racist?  

    This is just creeping me out.  

    [ Parent ]

    Yay, I've been waiting (5.00 / 6) (#26)
    by eleanora on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:27:48 PM EST
    for an open thread!

    I know ARG is a dreadful pollster, but this analysis by one of their guys is really interesting and uses turnout data v. election results, so I think it might hold up.

    ""A Surprise About Obama, Clinton, and Turnout"

    Conventional wisdom has it that Barack Obama's primary victories are based on his ability to increase turnout.

    A look at what happens when voter turnout increases in the primaries proves that this notion is wrong. In fact, Obama has had his greatest primary (and caucus) victories when turnouts have been low."

    He gives numbers for several primaries that startled me--I thought it was the reverse. Doesn't that give some pause about the idea that Obama is the one driving these massive Dem turnouts?

    Six states aren't enough (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:47:12 PM EST
    for any trends.  Now, I have to go see if I can find what the percent of registered vote was for each state to see if it's true......

    We know he didn't bring out voters in WV. :)

    Anglachel writing on WV.

    [ Parent ]

    TY for the link (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by eleanora on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:35:24 AM EST
    That was awesome! I'd love to see whatever data you come up with. Seems like Hillary does win most of the larger states with larger turnouts. But I've mostly seen the percentages cited as registered Dem voters, not as all registered voters in each state. Would be neat to see an apple-to-apples comparison that proves or disproves ARG's thesis. :)

    [ Parent ]
    Like I said, he can't win Virginia (none / 0) (#177)
    by SueBonnetSue on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:10:45 AM EST
    Unless he puts Mark Warner on his ticket.  

    Obama is losing against McCain in Ohio, PA, Virginia, and Florida.  There is NO way we can lose all of those states and win.  

    [ Parent ]

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by Brookhaven on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:35:38 AM EST
    I say he do something unique because we all know he's the change candidate and the one who doesn't do politics.  :)

    Is there a written rule that says he can only have one running mate?  I don't know of one.  So, I think he should run with 4 VP candidates on the ticket.

    Obama/Rendell/Strickland/Kaine/Crisp (with each one being VP for a Year - like the Obama's advertised to Repub's to be "Dems for A Day" during the primaries.  

    That quintet is a sure winner.  The quintessential key to victory. PA, Ohio, VA and Fla all go Blue for Obama.

    I know the campaign buttons, hats, bumper sticker, pens, etc. would be kind of crowded with all those names but I'm sure his supporters will only say "Yes We Can Can Can Can Can".  

    Yeah, I know, Crisp is a Repub but Obama is the one who reaches across all political boundaries and parties and who passionately longs for a gentler, kinder Americkka.

    Obama/Rendell/Strickland/Kaine/Crisp in '09/10/11/12.

    [ Parent ]

    Ok, so assume the tape (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by suisser on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:31:29 PM EST
    exists and is held tight till October. Can a candidate "resign"?  I'm thinking along the lines of Miss America... "should you become unable to fulfill your duties the 1st runner up will do so for you"


    lol, that struck me as so funny. (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Teresa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:37:42 PM EST
    This has become something of a pageant hasn't it?

    [ Parent ]
    Probably... (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:39:05 PM EST
    Sure, they probably can resign, but that is unheard of in October.  If our Nominee is forced from the stage like that that late in the game, then it is curtains for us.

    What would intrigue me is who would get the nod then.  One would assume that it would be the person in the VP slot, but I don't know what that would do to the Ballots.  They are printed before October, so it would be "Yeah, vote for Sen. Obama, but it's actually a vote for (Edwards, Clinton, whoever is doomed to be on the ticket with him)."  It would be a nightmare that does not need to happen.

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    Well Then...Now Would Be A Good Time For (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:44:35 PM EST
    obama to leave the stage.  

    [ Parent ]
    If it exists (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by PainKillerJayne on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:41:37 PM EST
    wouldn't that be sweet. Just sayin.

    [ Parent ]
    No, it would be sad. (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Cream City on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:45:22 PM EST
    But it still ought to come out, if it exists, for the public's right to know -- about those who influence potential presidents.  We would want to know about it if it was one of his advisors, staffers, etc.  Why? Because they influence him.

    [ Parent ]
    there's nothing sad about it (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by diplomatic on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:54:09 PM EST
    "sad" is what John Kerry likes to say.  We are trying to avert a general election disaster here and get a nominee who can actually win the White House and help turn this economy around.

    Democrats have come this close to nominating an unqualified, inexperienced, unvetted candidate because of an unwillingness to discuss the TRUTH wherever that may lead.  For a long time even this blog did not allow discussion of Jeremiah  Wright.  The media had no plans to report on it and even then they mostly showed the most benign clips from the sermons (except for FOX)

    This is too important now for continued ostrich behavior.

    Hillary deserves nothing less than an unfiltered comparison between the two candidates.  She is too classy to do it herself, but Democrats are not stepping up to "have her back" during this election and it's about time she got a little help.

    This goes beyond whether there is or isn't a tape of Michelle.  Most likely there is not.  But there are so many other things that remain unvetted that it is almost criminal.  Will we allow the Republicans to defeat us this easy?

    I say no, let's fight and stop being sad.

    [ Parent ]

    Sad, disappointed etc (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by RalphB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:02:27 AM EST
    All those wimpy terms have got to go in the political discourse.  They're just too weak and sound silly.  If we're gonna fight, let's do it.

    [ Parent ]
    In other words (none / 0) (#98)
    by Cream City on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:04:22 AM EST
    we agree -- do read beyond my header, beyond the single word with which you disagree.

    [ Parent ]
    allrighty (none / 0) (#115)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:11:27 AM EST
    I know you mean well.... but too many are getting co-opted into a losing frame, imo.

    Somebody else called it "lame"  I don't see anything negative whatsoever about seeing reality for what it is.

    I think I know what you meant... however things in the Democratic party have already become a tragedy.  The "it would be" part is obsolete :)

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe... (none / 0) (#69)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:48:16 PM EST
    If it comes out now, he's done.  But if it comes out in October, that will be one big turd in our collective sweets bag.  :)  If it's true, it needs to come out now before it costs this party everything.

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    Somehow it will still be Hillary's fault. (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by MarkL on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:51:09 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I (none / 0) (#135)
    by PainKillerJayne on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:26:57 AM EST
    agree Hunter

    [ Parent ]
    I've gotta run, but I suggest (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by andgarden on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:41:09 PM EST
    that anyone who thinks that this election will be a cakewalk go read Tom Davis's memo to his Republican House colleagues. (DOC) Obama's weakness are serious.:

    Cultural attitudes shape voter attitudes, and the urbane Swarthmore educated Dukakis and Yalie, John Kerry, lost handily in middle America.  Cultural issues have always been a part of the American political landscape, emerging, at times, in starkly partisan alignments.

    Since the Civil Rights revolution of the 1960's and the Vietnam War, cultural elites have trended Democratic, with many populist lower income whites often moving into the Republican column.  Southern Presidential nominees, with histories of tapping rural voters, have often kept lower income whites in the Democratic camp, while nominees more steeped in academia have faltered.

    Barrack Obama is a quintessential cultural liberal - the candidate of Hyde Park, the University of Chicago and Harvard.  Educated upscale voters from both parties, as well as independents of similar backgrounds, identify with his style and rhetoric.  Blue collar voters aren't so sure.

    Exit polls in West Virginia showed that two thirds of Clinton supporters were unwilling to commit to Obama in the fall - and that's just among Democrats!  With an economy perceived to be failing, these voters should be easy prey to ANY Democrat, but they're not.  Herein lies the key for the McCain campaign, and potentially for alert Republican Congressional candidates.

    Over the last twelve years, partisan alignments have moved away from wealth and economics to cultural and social issues.  Some of the wealthiest precincts in America, from McLean, Virginia to Beverly Hills; from Potomac, Maryland to Beacon Hill; from Newtrier to Shaker Heights, voted for John Kerry by substantial margins.  But Harlan County (Bloody Harlan), Kentucky, Bluefield, West Virginia and most of Appalachia voted overwhelmingly for Bush.

    [. . .]

    I point this out because Obama's appeal is to the liberal cultural base of the Democratic Party, not to its liberal economic base.  His connection to high income suburbs, the granola belt and college towns, is strong, but his connection to poorer whites, rural voters and other voters who may be susceptible to the Democrats' message on the economy is not yet demonstrated.  Conservative value voters are a long way from being sold on Obama, even while they feel pinched by global trade, a soft housing market and high gas prices.  But Republicans have to hold these voters to have any chance in 2008.



    now I have a sinking feeling in my (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:43:26 PM EST
    stomach

    [ Parent ]
    I've had it for months (none / 0) (#64)
    by dissenter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:46:09 PM EST
    But this might be what gets Clinton the nomination. At some point, the DNC will have to tell Obama he has to go if this is true. Michelle Obama knows if it is true and I'm sure people are going to be asking some serious questions in the coming days.

    Nobody keeps secrets in DC. If this is true, the DNC has to know and if they do and have done nothing, this party will cease to exist. Seriously.

    [ Parent ]

    That's... depressing. (5.00 / 5) (#71)
    by eleanora on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:49:33 PM EST
    I was so excited in January looking at our gorgeous array of smart, talented candidates and thinking I'd be proud to vote for any of them. And of course we were going to win, no question. Can we have the last few months back, please?

    [ Parent ]
    Congressional elections will be easy (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:52:12 PM EST
    Most are predicting at least 6 senate seat pickups and hopefully 25 house seats

    [ Parent ]
    Correct (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by andgarden on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:01:35 AM EST
    But that is sadly unrelated to the Presidential election. Obama is not a very good match for the states he needs to win in November.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh oh. You said "sadly" (none / 0) (#105)
    by Cream City on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:06:06 AM EST
    and I don't think that the adverbial form is allowed, either.  See upthread re my use of "sad."  We have to find new modifiers now, it seems.

    Or we can focus beyond "just words" to thoughts?

    [ Parent ]

    eeeek (none / 0) (#163)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:00:39 AM EST
    Sorry to have unloaded some of my greater frustrations with this process as a response to your earlier post! I was speaking beyond just your comment.  Don't worry and say whatever you want.  I'm going to start using that BTD thing: Speaking for me only

    [ Parent ]
    Did they think (none / 0) (#80)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:52:56 PM EST
    the whole "Lakoff framing" thingwould fool people?  I guess it fooled some, got a whole bunch of us in the Democratic core mad ( all the honoring Republican presidents, pandering to religion, bashing hippies etc) but they really thought those hard to get voters for the Dems, you know the ones we have been trying to seduce, they would just fall for it?  I guess if you think people are stupid and uneducated you don't give them much credit.  

    [ Parent ]
    It has worked splendidly for the (none / 0) (#100)
    by oculus on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:04:57 AM EST
    GOP in 2000 and 2004.  

    [ Parent ]
    John McCain promises to bring in Question Time (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by jerry on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:44:23 PM EST
    Wow! Up until now I would have thought there was absolutely no way I could vote for John McCain.  But for the longest time, I have really envied the British Parliament's Question Time, and I think in my past I've said I would vote for the candidate that brought in Question Time.

    Reason Magazine - Hit & Run > Question Time With the Republican President Who Will Appoint Democrats and Reject the Unitary Executive

    I think it's brilliant for McCain to claim to introduce this.  It should help put to rest the claims he is too old to lead.  A raucous question time should show how alert the guy actually is.

    I would really like to see Clinton and Obama match fire with fire.

    So tonight at least, I am a McCain fan.

    Yes, I was extremely impressed with this. (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by masslib on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:59:58 PM EST
    It's literally "new politics".  I don't know who advised him on this, but it is a great idea.

    [ Parent ]
    I was also impressed that (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by RalphB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:05:43 AM EST
    he would do away with "signing statement" and do away with the unitary executive stuff.


    [ Parent ]
    Did he say that? Hmm. (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by masslib on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:08:39 AM EST
    He's moving deftly to the middle.

    [ Parent ]
    McCain is scaring me more (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by eleanora on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:28:39 AM EST
    than I expected. The Gas Tax Holiday was pretty brilliant pandering, until Hillary stole it and changed the focus to how we pay for it. And he's been courting disaffected Clinton voters in some really subtle ways, plus this new moderate stuff all sounds really good. He's a much much better politician than I'd ever understood.

    [ Parent ]
    he launched a "Green Store" (none / 0) (#120)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:15:45 AM EST
    with environmentally friendly items on his website.  Yay McCain!  He's turning into an Eco-warrior/Papa Smurf.  The patriot who will save the forests and America.

    [ Parent ]
    McCain has been seriously underestimated. (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by MarkL on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:18:11 AM EST
    He's MUCH more likeable than Bush, and look what the PR people did with him!
    Obama is going to be mean and pissy with McCain, while McCain plays environmentalist and peacemonger and reformer.

    [ Parent ]
    I do a poor job of sounding tepid (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:20:50 AM EST
    I need to learn better from BTD.

    [ Parent ]
    And unlike Obama (none / 0) (#134)
    by RalphB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:26:11 AM EST
    who's trying to unify all the fundraising on the left through his own campaign, he's got a page devoted to charities that he and Cindy particularly like and want people to support.

    Eco-warrior/Papa Smurf  :-)


    [ Parent ]

    He is moving to the middle (none / 0) (#121)
    by jerry on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:16:17 AM EST
    Of course, that's the classic maneuver once you are the candidate, and both candidates will play this game (which is often seen in The Price is Right.)  The way to break up the game is to get rid of the two party system and have a real legitimate third party.

    And I was forced to listen to Rush in a car this morning, but Limbug was apoplectic over McCain's move to the middle.  Which was nice.

    The problem is that his voting record shows he is a big conservative, so is this just his version of 2000's compassionate conservatism?  (And is Obama really the liberal his supporter's claim he is?)

    [ Parent ]

    it would be healthy for our Democracy (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:08:24 AM EST
    I would like to see this from whoever wins the election.

    [ Parent ]
    If there would be more than 8 questions (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by Cream City on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:16:21 AM EST
    I don't think you'd see it with Obama.:-)

    [ Parent ]
    that'd be 8 disappointed sweeties (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:37:07 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Wouldn't Hillary (5.00 / 5) (#148)
    by eleanora on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:37:39 AM EST
    rock at that? And I'd pay good money to see President Bush go through question time. PPV could go to the National Debt.

    [ Parent ]
    yea, it would get huge ratings (none / 0) (#166)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:06:12 AM EST
    families could tune in and watch together and be informed and... oh it's just too SAD to think about it anymore... if we never get to see it happen.

    [ Parent ]
    OK (5.00 / 5) (#70)
    by phat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:49:26 PM EST
    This Clinton supporters are racists thing has to stop right now.

    I can't even tell how angry I am right now.

    Obama supporters need to put a sock in it right now.

    That is all.