Search the listings now:
![[image]](http://mowser.com/img?url=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.townnews.com%2Fmorrisdailyherald.com%2Fart%2FProvenaWebBanner.jpg)
November 18, 2008
Home News Sports Opinion Communities Entertainment Multimedia Homes Autos Classifieds Yahoo! HotJobs
Voice Of The People
Print this story | Email this story | [+] Text Size [-]
Research Islam on your own, it's your duty
I feel I must respond to the letter to the editor published in the Morris Daily Herald on Sept. 26, 2008 by Rubina Ali, Communications Intern, CAIR-Chicago. This letter was a rebuttal to my letter which was printed on Sept. 17, 2008.
CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) is the largest and most well known Islamic advocacy group in the United States. I find it very telling that not only did they attack me on a personal level but they also attacked you and the freedom to publish opinions in dissent of Islam.
Whenever Islam comes under close scrutiny they get very uncomfortable. There are several countries in present day Europe where it is illegal to criticize Islam and there are efforts underway in this country to do the same. This country was founded on freedom of speech and it remains the most important freedom we have to defend ourselves.
One point I will concede is that there are many peaceful Muslims in our country. Many are here to have a better life. My criticism is of the ideology of Islam, not of individual Muslims. I believe they are spiritually deceived and need our prayers.
But don't take my word, instead go to the internet and Google the name "Mark A. Gabriel". This man was a professor of Islamic studies at Al Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt, who left Islam and converted to Christianity. He is the author of several books discussing the ideology of Islam. One of the secrets of Islam is that if you convert from Islam to any other religion but especially Christianity, you are under a death sentence. His own father tried to kill him when he became aware of his conversion.
![[image]](http://mowser.com/img?url=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.townnews.com%2Fmorrisdailyherald.com%2Fart%2Fspacer.gif)
ADVERTISEMENT
Google the name "Walid Shoebat". This man was a PLO terrorist who also converted to Christianity, and now lives in this country. He also has written several books about Islam and terrorism and has given many television interviews. Many are available on the internet.
Google the name "Brigitte Gabriel". She is a Lebanese Christian who survived the Lebanese Civil war, and lived in a small bomb shelter for seven years. She was in constant danger from Muslim snipers and spent time in an Israeli hospital recovering from wounds suffered when Muslims bombed her home while they were attacking a nearby Lebanese military base. She has much to say about Islam.
Google the name "Robert Spencer". He is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of seven books, eight monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism.
Rubina Ali is correct in one point. Don't listen to me just because I say it. Listen to those who have lived there and have first hand experience. Do your own research. Learn as much about Islam as you can. Your children and grandchildren are depending on you!
Larry Nickels
Morris, IL
Comment Blog - Note: All Comments Subject To Approval
Im Your Huckleberry wrote on Oct 12, 2008 1:25 PM:
" Irf:" Huckleberry claims Muslims committed 171 murders since 9/11. So between Sept 11 2001 and now, 1.2 billion Muslims have committed only 171 murders.
That's a pretty low figure, don't you think? "
Huck: LOL!!! That was only for the week of Sep 27 - Oct 03. Read it again, Tokyo Rose. There's been 12028 Deadly Terror Attacks since 9-11. When you calculate the dozens, scores, or hundreds of deaths in each attack the number is alarmingly high. And keep in mind that these attacks happen in numerous countries throughout the world. But don't take my word for it, I invite all once again to go to http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ Thank you,Irf, for giving me the opportunity to mention that very important website again.
Irf:" Usama wants Muslims in America to believe they aren't welcome in America's liberal democracy."
Huck: All Muslims in America don't want Americans to step foot in Mecca. They don't say a word about the destruction of bibles in Saudi Arabia. Compare the number of churches and synagogues in Saudi to the number of Mosques in America. Muslims would have to get their own house in order before they could criticize us, wouldn't they? "
That's a pretty low figure, don't you think? "
Huck: LOL!!! That was only for the week of Sep 27 - Oct 03. Read it again, Tokyo Rose. There's been 12028 Deadly Terror Attacks since 9-11. When you calculate the dozens, scores, or hundreds of deaths in each attack the number is alarmingly high. And keep in mind that these attacks happen in numerous countries throughout the world. But don't take my word for it, I invite all once again to go to http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ Thank you,Irf, for giving me the opportunity to mention that very important website again.
Irf:" Usama wants Muslims in America to believe they aren't welcome in America's liberal democracy."
Huck: All Muslims in America don't want Americans to step foot in Mecca. They don't say a word about the destruction of bibles in Saudi Arabia. Compare the number of churches and synagogues in Saudi to the number of Mosques in America. Muslims would have to get their own house in order before they could criticize us, wouldn't they? "
Irf wrote on Oct 12, 2008 9:57 AM:
" Huckleberry claims Muslims committed 171 murders since 9/11. So between Sept 11 2001 and now, 1.2 billion Muslims have committed only 171 murders.
That's a pretty low figure, don't you think? I'm sure there were more murders just in Sarah Palin's home state.
And is a "jihad" attack one where the terrorists end up killing more Muslims? Like the suicide attacks in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia and Iraq?
People like you, Huck, aren't just doing Hitler's work. You're also doing Usama bin Ladin's work. Usama wants Muslims in America to believe they aren't welcome in America's liberal democracy. He wants them to believe America is turning into a homeland for Crusading nutbags whose idea of religion is to demonise Muslims whilst waiting for the rapture when Jesus will come back and kill the Jews Hitler couldn't get to.
You are doing bin-Ladin's dirty work for him. Bin-Ladin doesn't need to lift a finger because he has people like you demonising and marginalising Muslims into his general direction.
Congratulations, Huck. You have unofficially joined bin-Ladin's jihad. America cannot find bin-Ladin, but bin-Ladin knows exactl where to find useful Americans. "
That's a pretty low figure, don't you think? I'm sure there were more murders just in Sarah Palin's home state.
And is a "jihad" attack one where the terrorists end up killing more Muslims? Like the suicide attacks in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia and Iraq?
People like you, Huck, aren't just doing Hitler's work. You're also doing Usama bin Ladin's work. Usama wants Muslims in America to believe they aren't welcome in America's liberal democracy. He wants them to believe America is turning into a homeland for Crusading nutbags whose idea of religion is to demonise Muslims whilst waiting for the rapture when Jesus will come back and kill the Jews Hitler couldn't get to.
You are doing bin-Ladin's dirty work for him. Bin-Ladin doesn't need to lift a finger because he has people like you demonising and marginalising Muslims into his general direction.
Congratulations, Huck. You have unofficially joined bin-Ladin's jihad. America cannot find bin-Ladin, but bin-Ladin knows exactl where to find useful Americans. "
Im Your Huckleberry wrote on Oct 12, 2008 9:45 AM:
" Countless Muslims are murdering people in **numerous countries** throughout the world with funding and facilitation by many more Muslims. All Muslims discriminate against non-Muslims in not allowing them into Mecca. Bibles are destroyed by the Saudi govt. One can recieve the death penalty in some Muslim countries if you leave Islam. What does the local Tokyo Rose suggest we do? "
Random reader wrote on Oct 12, 2008 5:58 AM:
" To Im Your Huckleberry:
You're using the word "Muslim" synonymously with "terrorist." That's exactly what the terrorists want you to do, and that's probably the single most dangerous thing we can do.
Mainstream Muslims didn't commit the horrific acts of violence you list, only the terrorists did.
As far as I can tell, only mainstream Muslims are being compared to the Jews in Nazi Germany, and they are not mass murderers. All they want to do is practice their religion in peace, just as the Jews did leading up to the Holocaust. "
You're using the word "Muslim" synonymously with "terrorist." That's exactly what the terrorists want you to do, and that's probably the single most dangerous thing we can do.
Mainstream Muslims didn't commit the horrific acts of violence you list, only the terrorists did.
As far as I can tell, only mainstream Muslims are being compared to the Jews in Nazi Germany, and they are not mass murderers. All they want to do is practice their religion in peace, just as the Jews did leading up to the Holocaust. "
Im Your Huckleberry wrote on Oct 11, 2008 10:27 PM:
" Irf"In the decades leading upto the Holocaust, European national socialists used Jewish sacred law as a weapon to incite hatred ahainst Jews. Some people here are repeating that innuendo and prejudice."
Huck: 12028 Deadly Terror Attacks since 9-11
Muslim Attacks for the week of
Sep 27 - Oct 03
Jihad Attacks: 43
Murders: 171
Critically Injured: 481
Irf, you are a disgustingly perverse man for comparing Muslims to the Jews of Nazi Germany and myself and others to the European national socialists. You are a facilitator and accomplice to mass murderers. You are not worthy of shame.
For more info on **MUSLIM** evil in many countries throughout the world, please go to
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ "
Huck: 12028 Deadly Terror Attacks since 9-11
Muslim Attacks for the week of
Sep 27 - Oct 03
Jihad Attacks: 43
Murders: 171
Critically Injured: 481
Irf, you are a disgustingly perverse man for comparing Muslims to the Jews of Nazi Germany and myself and others to the European national socialists. You are a facilitator and accomplice to mass murderers. You are not worthy of shame.
For more info on **MUSLIM** evil in many countries throughout the world, please go to
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ "
Irf wrote on Oct 11, 2008 12:45 PM:
" "There is no way to understand the mindset of the terrorists without discussing negative aspects of Islam, because that is what gives rise to their whole belief system". Justin is right. The Tamil Tigers, Kahane Chai, Michigan Militia, FARC and other terrorist groups are all inspired by Islamic theology.
And if you believe that, you'll believe the moon is made from green cheese. "
And if you believe that, you'll believe the moon is made from green cheese. "
Irf wrote on Oct 11, 2008 12:43 PM:
" "Irf, **ALL** Sunni and **ALL** Shia Muslims of the world have no problem discriminating against everyone who is not Muslim by not letting them enter Mecca".
And there is a Sikh temple in Lahore where only Sikhs can enter. Will you argue that you should be allowed to discriminate against Sikhs? Will you support religious hatred against Sikhs?
Then again, the first hate-crime committed after Sept 11 was against a Sikh. His killer later told police he thought the Sikh was a Muslim.
Hatred is blind and built on ignorance. "
And there is a Sikh temple in Lahore where only Sikhs can enter. Will you argue that you should be allowed to discriminate against Sikhs? Will you support religious hatred against Sikhs?
Then again, the first hate-crime committed after Sept 11 was against a Sikh. His killer later told police he thought the Sikh was a Muslim.
Hatred is blind and built on ignorance. "
Irf wrote on Oct 11, 2008 12:39 PM:
" Justin asks for a manual of sacred law that keeps up with modern views on social and moral issues. Why doesn't he ask for a similar manual of Jewish sacred law? All the 9 issues he has raised have equally (if not more) draconian provisions in Jewish sacred law. But how many American Jews call for implementation of Jewish sacred law in its entirety? How many American Muslims call for the implementation of Islamic sacred law in its entirety?
And why doesn't Justin ask about the main provision of Islamic sacred law affecting all Muslim minorities - that Islamic sacred law has little or no jurisdiction in lands ruled in accordance with other legal systems. The same provision applies in Jewish sacred law.
In the decades leading upto the Holocaust, European national socialists used Jewish sacred law as a weapon to incite hatred ahainst Jews. Some people here are repeating that innuendo and prejudice. Hence I again ask: If Islamic sacred law is so dangerous and if all Muslims are bound by its entirety, what is your solution when it comes to American Muslims? What would you like to see happen to Muslims? What is your final solution? "
And why doesn't Justin ask about the main provision of Islamic sacred law affecting all Muslim minorities - that Islamic sacred law has little or no jurisdiction in lands ruled in accordance with other legal systems. The same provision applies in Jewish sacred law.
In the decades leading upto the Holocaust, European national socialists used Jewish sacred law as a weapon to incite hatred ahainst Jews. Some people here are repeating that innuendo and prejudice. Hence I again ask: If Islamic sacred law is so dangerous and if all Muslims are bound by its entirety, what is your solution when it comes to American Muslims? What would you like to see happen to Muslims? What is your final solution? "
Random reader wrote on Oct 11, 2008 12:04 PM:
" To Justin Smith:
I understand what you're saying.
Non-terrorist Muslims in the U.S., though, are perfectly happy to live alongside America's right to free speech (including saying what one likes about Islam), otherwise presumably they wouldn't be here. So I still don't see, practically speaking, how allowing non-terrorist Muslims to practice their religion is an obstruction to us understanding the terrorists better.
Your second point, though, is the crux of the issue. Yes, I suppose terrorist Muslims could recruit and convert mainstream Muslims. Given that mainstream Muslims have been as much a victim of terrorist activities as the rest of us, that is unlikely, but perhaps not impossible. And the fact that our country allows freedom of religion might well end up being our Achilles heel.
But it goes against everything this country stands for to prevent a person from practicing their chosen religion.
We cannot let fear dictate how we treat a segment of our population. We did that with the Japanese during WW II, and that was a huge mistake.
Like it or not, the real threat to this country's safety is Americans' complacency, not the peaceful practice of Islam. "
I understand what you're saying.
Non-terrorist Muslims in the U.S., though, are perfectly happy to live alongside America's right to free speech (including saying what one likes about Islam), otherwise presumably they wouldn't be here. So I still don't see, practically speaking, how allowing non-terrorist Muslims to practice their religion is an obstruction to us understanding the terrorists better.
Your second point, though, is the crux of the issue. Yes, I suppose terrorist Muslims could recruit and convert mainstream Muslims. Given that mainstream Muslims have been as much a victim of terrorist activities as the rest of us, that is unlikely, but perhaps not impossible. And the fact that our country allows freedom of religion might well end up being our Achilles heel.
But it goes against everything this country stands for to prevent a person from practicing their chosen religion.
We cannot let fear dictate how we treat a segment of our population. We did that with the Japanese during WW II, and that was a huge mistake.
Like it or not, the real threat to this country's safety is Americans' complacency, not the peaceful practice of Islam. "
Justin Smith wrote on Oct 10, 2008 8:53 PM:
" Random Reader:
You said, 'We can learn about Islam without being critical of it, so I don't buy that we need to be "blasphemous" in order to understand the Islamic terrorists better.'
This makes no sense. For non-Muslims to learn about Islam, we have to discuss it. If we were to discuss Islam without being critical of it, we would be apologists who only whitewash Islam. We would not be learning the mindset of the terrorists or the peaceful Islamists. There is no way to understand the mindset of the terrorists without discussing negative aspects of Islam, because that is what gives rise to their whole belief system.
You said, '...the hateful, violent passages in the Quran are a problem with regard to the terrorists, but not with regard to mainstream Muslims.' You seem to be ignoring the fact that those same passages have been known to turn peaceful Muslims into terrorists. I do not expect it to ever happen that all peaceful Muslims would turn into terrorists, but some of them do, and the Quran is very much a part of that. "
You said, 'We can learn about Islam without being critical of it, so I don't buy that we need to be "blasphemous" in order to understand the Islamic terrorists better.'
This makes no sense. For non-Muslims to learn about Islam, we have to discuss it. If we were to discuss Islam without being critical of it, we would be apologists who only whitewash Islam. We would not be learning the mindset of the terrorists or the peaceful Islamists. There is no way to understand the mindset of the terrorists without discussing negative aspects of Islam, because that is what gives rise to their whole belief system.
You said, '...the hateful, violent passages in the Quran are a problem with regard to the terrorists, but not with regard to mainstream Muslims.' You seem to be ignoring the fact that those same passages have been known to turn peaceful Muslims into terrorists. I do not expect it to ever happen that all peaceful Muslims would turn into terrorists, but some of them do, and the Quran is very much a part of that. "
Im Your Huckleberry wrote on Oct 10, 2008 7:40 PM:
" Irf:"And if Muslims are all so dangerous, what do you propose we do with them? Expell them? Force them to have abortions? Eliminate them?"
Irf, **ALL** Sunni and **ALL** Shia Muslims of the world have no problem discriminating against everyone who is not Muslim by not letting them enter Mecca. You can't get more mainstrean than that, can you? If you can't see this for how dangerous it is, than you shouldn't have a problem with us keeping them from entering our country. I think this is a great deal and I'm sure you'll agree. Sucker. "
Irf, **ALL** Sunni and **ALL** Shia Muslims of the world have no problem discriminating against everyone who is not Muslim by not letting them enter Mecca. You can't get more mainstrean than that, can you? If you can't see this for how dangerous it is, than you shouldn't have a problem with us keeping them from entering our country. I think this is a great deal and I'm sure you'll agree. Sucker. "
Justin Smith wrote on Oct 10, 2008 12:23 PM:
" Irf,
As for Robert Spencer's credentials, you are the one who claimed that he knows no Arabic, you are the one who claimed it matters, not me. Therefore, you are the one who needs to "bring your proofs".
I think it is a mistake to be swayed by credentials. Robert Spencer has credibility with me because he backs up his assertions with evidence, and no one seems to be able to refute him with better evidence.
The reason I pay attention to evidence rather than qualifications is that it is common for "experts" to use their qualifications to fool people. John Esposito, as an example, recently published a book in which he assumes 'the proper term for a Muslim who hates America, wants to impose Sharia law, supports suicide bombing, and opposes equal rights for women but does not "completely" justify 9/11 is .  .  . "moderate."' He does not come out and say this, but fortunately his co-author has loose lips and let it slip at a luncheon. All those who buy his book and are swayed by his impressive qualifications will be fooled. See url below.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/066chpzg.asp?pg=1 "
As for Robert Spencer's credentials, you are the one who claimed that he knows no Arabic, you are the one who claimed it matters, not me. Therefore, you are the one who needs to "bring your proofs".
I think it is a mistake to be swayed by credentials. Robert Spencer has credibility with me because he backs up his assertions with evidence, and no one seems to be able to refute him with better evidence.
The reason I pay attention to evidence rather than qualifications is that it is common for "experts" to use their qualifications to fool people. John Esposito, as an example, recently published a book in which he assumes 'the proper term for a Muslim who hates America, wants to impose Sharia law, supports suicide bombing, and opposes equal rights for women but does not "completely" justify 9/11 is .  .  . "moderate."' He does not come out and say this, but fortunately his co-author has loose lips and let it slip at a luncheon. All those who buy his book and are swayed by his impressive qualifications will be fooled. See url below.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/066chpzg.asp?pg=1 "
Justin Smith wrote on Oct 10, 2008 12:20 PM:
" Irf,
For an easy introduction to dangers posed by Sharia, I suggest Reliance of the Traveller, a classic Shafi'i manual that has recently been translated into English and certified by al-Azhar University, considered prestigious by many (though of course not all) orthodox Muslims.
I did not say Muslims are "all so dangerous". This is a straw man.
There is no easy solution to problems posed by Islamic supremacy, but unless we understand it, there will be no solution at all. "
For an easy introduction to dangers posed by Sharia, I suggest Reliance of the Traveller, a classic Shafi'i manual that has recently been translated into English and certified by al-Azhar University, considered prestigious by many (though of course not all) orthodox Muslims.
I did not say Muslims are "all so dangerous". This is a straw man.
There is no easy solution to problems posed by Islamic supremacy, but unless we understand it, there will be no solution at all. "
Justin Smith wrote on Oct 10, 2008 12:19 PM:
" Irf,
You resort to ad hominem attacks. I did not claim to be an expert on Islamic sacred law, but I know enough to have grave concerns about it. To show Islamic law is not oppressive, please give an example of a comprehensive, authoritative Sharia manual that clearly states:
* Homosexuals may not be punished for their sexual choices or identity
* Wives have just as much right to "discipline" their husbands as husbands have to discipline them
* Women's, men's, Muslims' and non-Muslims' testimony in court is worth exactly the same in every legal context
* Non-Muslims may participate fully at every level of government and may institute laws contrary to Islamic law
* Muslims, non-Muslims, and ex-Muslims all have the right to express any opinion about any aspect of Islam regardless of whether some Muslims consider it blasphemous
* Militant Jihad is illegal in every circumstance
* There is no goal of establishing a Caliphate
* Non-Muslims and ex-Muslims may promote their religious or spiritual beliefs to Muslims
* There is no penalty for leaving Islam
Copious evidence shows the above is contrary to Sharia. "
You resort to ad hominem attacks. I did not claim to be an expert on Islamic sacred law, but I know enough to have grave concerns about it. To show Islamic law is not oppressive, please give an example of a comprehensive, authoritative Sharia manual that clearly states:
* Homosexuals may not be punished for their sexual choices or identity
* Wives have just as much right to "discipline" their husbands as husbands have to discipline them
* Women's, men's, Muslims' and non-Muslims' testimony in court is worth exactly the same in every legal context
* Non-Muslims may participate fully at every level of government and may institute laws contrary to Islamic law
* Muslims, non-Muslims, and ex-Muslims all have the right to express any opinion about any aspect of Islam regardless of whether some Muslims consider it blasphemous
* Militant Jihad is illegal in every circumstance
* There is no goal of establishing a Caliphate
* Non-Muslims and ex-Muslims may promote their religious or spiritual beliefs to Muslims
* There is no penalty for leaving Islam
Copious evidence shows the above is contrary to Sharia. "
Random reader wrote on Oct 10, 2008 11:36 AM:
" To awake:
I'm only saying that mainstream Muslims aren't out there harming and killing non-Muslim Americans, regardless of what the Quran's literal translation(s) may say.
And I'm not apologizing for anyone.
To Justin Smith:
We can learn about Islam without being critical of it, so I don't buy that we need to be "blasphemous" in order to understand the Islamic terrorists better.
And, yes, the hateful, violent passages in the Quran are a problem with regard to the terrorists, but not with regard to mainstream Muslims. That's the issue here.
No one is disagreeing that the terrorists and their desire to impose Sharia Law on the whole world and their literal interpretation of the Quaran are dangerous and a very real threat to the U.S.
But that very real fear and concern does not apply to mainstream non-terrorist Muslims who are quite content living under both their Muslim traditions and U.S. laws, which include free speech, women's right to vote, and so on. "
I'm only saying that mainstream Muslims aren't out there harming and killing non-Muslim Americans, regardless of what the Quran's literal translation(s) may say.
And I'm not apologizing for anyone.
To Justin Smith:
We can learn about Islam without being critical of it, so I don't buy that we need to be "blasphemous" in order to understand the Islamic terrorists better.
And, yes, the hateful, violent passages in the Quran are a problem with regard to the terrorists, but not with regard to mainstream Muslims. That's the issue here.
No one is disagreeing that the terrorists and their desire to impose Sharia Law on the whole world and their literal interpretation of the Quaran are dangerous and a very real threat to the U.S.
But that very real fear and concern does not apply to mainstream non-terrorist Muslims who are quite content living under both their Muslim traditions and U.S. laws, which include free speech, women's right to vote, and so on. "
God squad wrote on Oct 10, 2008 5:12 AM:
" Ok. You are correct in that there are a great deal of religious extremeists. In fact outside of government, only the extreme ideology of relgions has killed millions in the name of their god. We have all kinds of extreme religions in America. It is rather funny yet scarey to watch them judge and condem other "christians". Obviously they do not read. That being said what is the point of this article? Muslims are dangerous? a threat? If that is it I can assure you that there are just as many threats from the self proclaimed "christians".
The people who wrote the American constitution recognized that God is important! However, Government needs to be seperate. It is when religion becomes the government (a theocracy)that we see major humanitarian issues. This is the root of the Muslim issue. If we understand this then we can understand how people become "fanatical and extreme in their behavior. I have meet many "christians who are just as worked up over humanity. They too can not seperate their god from government. In fact many of these 'christians' believe their god should be the government! There is your issue to be concerned with! "
The people who wrote the American constitution recognized that God is important! However, Government needs to be seperate. It is when religion becomes the government (a theocracy)that we see major humanitarian issues. This is the root of the Muslim issue. If we understand this then we can understand how people become "fanatical and extreme in their behavior. I have meet many "christians who are just as worked up over humanity. They too can not seperate their god from government. In fact many of these 'christians' believe their god should be the government! There is your issue to be concerned with! "
Irf wrote on Oct 10, 2008 3:23 AM:
" Wow, Justin. You seem to be an expert on Islamic sacred law. Tell me about which ahkam of sharia represent a threat to Western society? Which sections of salaat are a danger to you. Would you regard ijma as more dangerous than qiyas or vice versa?
And if Muslims are all so dangerous, what do you propose we do with them? Expell them? Force them to have abortions? Eliminate them?
And what evidence do you have of Robert Spencer's qualifications? Have you a copy of an up-to-date CV of his? "
And if Muslims are all so dangerous, what do you propose we do with them? Expell them? Force them to have abortions? Eliminate them?
And what evidence do you have of Robert Spencer's qualifications? Have you a copy of an up-to-date CV of his? "
Irf wrote on Oct 9, 2008 11:49 PM:
" Yes, awake, you are right. All American Muslims obey the Koran. Just as all Americans obey American law. That might explain why American prisons are all empty. Further, all Christians follow the Bible. That explains why there are no Christian clergy caught engaged in acts of pedophilia and why no televangelists are ever caught engaging in fraud.
If you believe all that, you should consider spending less time on these blogs and more time seeking medical assistance. "
If you believe all that, you should consider spending less time on these blogs and more time seeking medical assistance. "
Justin Smith wrote on Oct 9, 2008 11:41 PM:
" Irf,
You said a translation is 'an imperfect rendering of the original.' This is correct. However, Robert Spencer reads translations done by Muslims, which are widely read by Muslims. So, for the purpose of learning how Muslims themselves understand the Quran, a popular Muslim translation is better than the original.
I notice that you still haven't proven Robert Spencer does not read Arabic. 'Bring your proof if you are truthful.'
As for whether you have the right to comment on the faith of Christians, of course you do. Whether it's worth your time to do so, or worth anyone's time to read it, will depend on whether it serves a useful purpose. In the case of Islam, it is essential for non-Muslims to understand the ideology of Islamic terrorists, and that of peaceful Islamists who wish to impose Sharia law, because both of these could have a direct bearing on our lives and that of our progeny. Islam is not only a faith, it is also a political system. I don't really care about prayer rugs and ablutions, but I do care about Jihad and dhimmi laws. "
You said a translation is 'an imperfect rendering of the original.' This is correct. However, Robert Spencer reads translations done by Muslims, which are widely read by Muslims. So, for the purpose of learning how Muslims themselves understand the Quran, a popular Muslim translation is better than the original.
I notice that you still haven't proven Robert Spencer does not read Arabic. 'Bring your proof if you are truthful.'
As for whether you have the right to comment on the faith of Christians, of course you do. Whether it's worth your time to do so, or worth anyone's time to read it, will depend on whether it serves a useful purpose. In the case of Islam, it is essential for non-Muslims to understand the ideology of Islamic terrorists, and that of peaceful Islamists who wish to impose Sharia law, because both of these could have a direct bearing on our lives and that of our progeny. Islam is not only a faith, it is also a political system. I don't really care about prayer rugs and ablutions, but I do care about Jihad and dhimmi laws. "
Justin Smith wrote on Oct 9, 2008 11:22 PM:
" Random reader:
I'll give you one example of how accommodating a mainstream Muslim tradition opens us up to further terrorism: It is a mainstream Muslim 'tradition', if you will, to censor speech regarded as 'blasphemous'. Anything critical of Islam falls into that category, including information that helps us understand the Islamic terrorists. Accommodating this tradition would certainly prevent us from effectively defending ourselves against terrorist attacks, by limiting our understanding of their ideology.
It is also a mainstream Muslim 'tradition' to establish Sharia law. This is also the ultimate goal of Islamic terrorism. This is a problem whether or not it's violent, unless you particularly like oppression of women, gays, non-Muslims, ex-Muslims, and unorthodox Muslims.
The hateful, violent passages in the Quran are a problem because there will always be a portion of Muslims who can be persuaded to follow them. I can't even believe I have to explain this. There is no comparison between the hate and violence in the Quran and in Islamic tradition as compared with other religions. "
I'll give you one example of how accommodating a mainstream Muslim tradition opens us up to further terrorism: It is a mainstream Muslim 'tradition', if you will, to censor speech regarded as 'blasphemous'. Anything critical of Islam falls into that category, including information that helps us understand the Islamic terrorists. Accommodating this tradition would certainly prevent us from effectively defending ourselves against terrorist attacks, by limiting our understanding of their ideology.
It is also a mainstream Muslim 'tradition' to establish Sharia law. This is also the ultimate goal of Islamic terrorism. This is a problem whether or not it's violent, unless you particularly like oppression of women, gays, non-Muslims, ex-Muslims, and unorthodox Muslims.
The hateful, violent passages in the Quran are a problem because there will always be a portion of Muslims who can be persuaded to follow them. I can't even believe I have to explain this. There is no comparison between the hate and violence in the Quran and in Islamic tradition as compared with other religions. "
awake wrote on Oct 9, 2008 10:29 PM:
" "The Quran says what it says, but that has no bearing on the fact that mainstream Muslims and their religious traditions pose no threat to the U.S."
Huh? So the books say so, but we are all misconstruing them?
Try again, Islamic apologist!
Muslims "always" tell the truth about Islam, when given enough time. "
Huh? So the books say so, but we are all misconstruing them?
Try again, Islamic apologist!
Muslims "always" tell the truth about Islam, when given enough time. "
Irf wrote on Oct 9, 2008 10:06 PM:
" "If Islam can only be properly understood in Arabic, then why do Muslims translate it into English?"
For the same reason that the words of Christ were translated from Aramaic to Greek and then to English. Not everyone can speak classical Aramaic.
But you should treat a translation as just that - an imperfect rendering of the original. In my opinion, failure to do this led to the creation of all kinds of wierd and wonderful sects and denominations emerging especially among Protestant Christians. You need only read about the history of groups like the Exclusive Brethren to see this process.
I hope this is the last theological point I need to make. This discussion is about something else. "
For the same reason that the words of Christ were translated from Aramaic to Greek and then to English. Not everyone can speak classical Aramaic.
But you should treat a translation as just that - an imperfect rendering of the original. In my opinion, failure to do this led to the creation of all kinds of wierd and wonderful sects and denominations emerging especially among Protestant Christians. You need only read about the history of groups like the Exclusive Brethren to see this process.
I hope this is the last theological point I need to make. This discussion is about something else. "
Irf wrote on Oct 9, 2008 10:00 PM:
" I note there are some ex-Muslims here sharing with us their experiences. That's fine. I could share my experiences of evangelical Christianity which I adopted in High School. I also knew various versions of the New Testament - KJV, 1952 RSV, 1971 RSV, NIV - very thoroughly. Does that give me the right to comment on the faith of millions of good and decent Christians around the world? Can I point to Christian extremists in the Bush Administration and claim that they represent ALL Christians? Of course not. Believers in all faiths deserve the same respect. "
Irf wrote on Oct 9, 2008 9:54 PM:
" Some have asked what relevance classical Arabic has to Islam. Simple - all classical texts are written in Arabic, a zsemitic language with strong use of metaphor and hyperbole. Translations can be used to explain, interpret and/or distort. Mr Spencer tries to prove all 1.2 billion Muslims act in the same manner as the hundred or so he and his minions trawl through the internet to find. He claims violent Muslims carry out the dictates of texts.
There is another thing Spencer and his ilk have little understanding of - how are these texts used to derive rules? Islam and Judaism both have a system of sacred laws. Many draconian principles of Islamic sacred law also exist in Judaism. But we don't see Jews or Muslims (apart from extremists) trying to force literal interpretations down people's throats. Why?
Because not every single Jewish or Islamic believer necessarily acts in accordance with the most literal interpretation of ancient legal provisions.
I realise there are sectarian bigots and evangelisers here trying to prove there is a grand conspiracy of Muslims. Their theory makes little sense when you see Muslims cannot even agree on when to start or finish Ramadan! "
There is another thing Spencer and his ilk have little understanding of - how are these texts used to derive rules? Islam and Judaism both have a system of sacred laws. Many draconian principles of Islamic sacred law also exist in Judaism. But we don't see Jews or Muslims (apart from extremists) trying to force literal interpretations down people's throats. Why?
Because not every single Jewish or Islamic believer necessarily acts in accordance with the most literal interpretation of ancient legal provisions.
I realise there are sectarian bigots and evangelisers here trying to prove there is a grand conspiracy of Muslims. Their theory makes little sense when you see Muslims cannot even agree on when to start or finish Ramadan! "
Random reader wrote on Oct 9, 2008 7:05 PM:
" I fail to see how all this is relevant to the issue at hand.
Mr. Nickels's initial letter suggested that by accommodating mainstream Muslim religious traditions, America is somehow opening itself up for further terrorist attacks, to which Mr. Ali pointed out that the terrorists and the mainstream Muslims are two entirely different groups of people.
The Quran says what it says, but that has no bearing on the fact that mainstream Muslims and their religious traditions pose no threat to the U.S. whatsoever.
So what if the Quran does say Muslims should convert or kill non-believers? How many mainstream Muslims have killed or wounded non-Muslim Americans because they weren't Muslim? It just doesn't happen.
Maybe those violent passages in the Quran and the people Mr. Nickels listed above can help us understand more where the terrorists are coming from, but none of that is relevant to mainstream Muslims carrying on with their own peace-loving interpretation of those texts.
America has enough enemies without creating new ones from a group of people who would like to think of themselves not only as allies but fellow citizens. "
Mr. Nickels's initial letter suggested that by accommodating mainstream Muslim religious traditions, America is somehow opening itself up for further terrorist attacks, to which Mr. Ali pointed out that the terrorists and the mainstream Muslims are two entirely different groups of people.
The Quran says what it says, but that has no bearing on the fact that mainstream Muslims and their religious traditions pose no threat to the U.S. whatsoever.
So what if the Quran does say Muslims should convert or kill non-believers? How many mainstream Muslims have killed or wounded non-Muslim Americans because they weren't Muslim? It just doesn't happen.
Maybe those violent passages in the Quran and the people Mr. Nickels listed above can help us understand more where the terrorists are coming from, but none of that is relevant to mainstream Muslims carrying on with their own peace-loving interpretation of those texts.
America has enough enemies without creating new ones from a group of people who would like to think of themselves not only as allies but fellow citizens. "
awake wrote on Oct 9, 2008 4:30 PM:
" As others have pointed out. If Islam can only be properly understood in Arabic, then why do Muslims translate it into English?
Is this the error that is leading to the pandemic global problem of violent intolerant misunderstanders of Islam?
Islam hates the truth, especially when we infidels know it. "
Is this the error that is leading to the pandemic global problem of violent intolerant misunderstanders of Islam?
Islam hates the truth, especially when we infidels know it. "
Kimberley wrote on Oct 9, 2008 3:55 PM:
" Poor "Irf" --
Arabic, Turkish, Urdu and Farsi can be translated - JUST LIKE ANY OTHER LANGUAGES! They're not "special!" Hello!
ANY translation of the Qur'an says that the followers of Islam are to subjugate or kill "Infidels" - i.e. anyone not Islamic! Poor ignorant "Irf!" Oh, "Infidel" means YOU, too, Irf! Stupid!
Bravo Robert Spencer! Thanks for telling the truth about evil Islam! "
Arabic, Turkish, Urdu and Farsi can be translated - JUST LIKE ANY OTHER LANGUAGES! They're not "special!" Hello!
ANY translation of the Qur'an says that the followers of Islam are to subjugate or kill "Infidels" - i.e. anyone not Islamic! Poor ignorant "Irf!" Oh, "Infidel" means YOU, too, Irf! Stupid!
Bravo Robert Spencer! Thanks for telling the truth about evil Islam! "
SwedishWiking wrote on Oct 9, 2008 3:42 PM:
" Irf wrote on Oct 9, 2008 10:43 AM:
"Robert Spencer cannot speak or read classical Arabic. He relies on translations of classical Islamic texts without providing us with details of the translation. He also doesn't speak or read Turkish, Urdu, Farsi or other languages in which the prominent works of 20th century political Islamists write. Yet he claims expertise in this area."
So what are a true muslim like you doin g then? Almost no one in the whole world can talk, read an write classic Arabic. Not even the most experienced muftis can do this more than just in a few sentences and words.
Why am I so certain that you cant do it either?! Imagine that there are almost 1.5 billion muslims that doesn't know what the Quran says. If they did, they would not be muslims any more.
That was a really bad example of showing off but without the showing off.
Islam is a lie and truth is killing it! "
"Robert Spencer cannot speak or read classical Arabic. He relies on translations of classical Islamic texts without providing us with details of the translation. He also doesn't speak or read Turkish, Urdu, Farsi or other languages in which the prominent works of 20th century political Islamists write. Yet he claims expertise in this area."
So what are a true muslim like you doin g then? Almost no one in the whole world can talk, read an write classic Arabic. Not even the most experienced muftis can do this more than just in a few sentences and words.
Why am I so certain that you cant do it either?! Imagine that there are almost 1.5 billion muslims that doesn't know what the Quran says. If they did, they would not be muslims any more.
That was a really bad example of showing off but without the showing off.
Islam is a lie and truth is killing it! "
Justin Smith wrote on Oct 9, 2008 3:05 PM:
" Irf,
Your notion that a person cannot become an expert on Islam without knowing Arabic (and a long list of other languages) is absurd. Muslims themselves have translated the Quran and the rest of the core Islamic material into English. Are you saying that all these Muslim translators are frauds and should be investigated for selling books that claim to translate the meaning of the original yet they really don't?
Although it really doesn't matter whether Spencer understands Arabic, what's your evidence for what languages he does or does not know? At the link below is a photo of him standing in front of his bookcase. You'll notice a book in Arabic. Can you prove that he cannot read this book?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/021040.php "
Your notion that a person cannot become an expert on Islam without knowing Arabic (and a long list of other languages) is absurd. Muslims themselves have translated the Quran and the rest of the core Islamic material into English. Are you saying that all these Muslim translators are frauds and should be investigated for selling books that claim to translate the meaning of the original yet they really don't?
Although it really doesn't matter whether Spencer understands Arabic, what's your evidence for what languages he does or does not know? At the link below is a photo of him standing in front of his bookcase. You'll notice a book in Arabic. Can you prove that he cannot read this book?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/021040.php "
Sania wrote on Oct 9, 2008 2:07 PM:
" Mr Hubers: I am an ex-muslim and have read all Robert Spencer books anout Mohammed/Islam. I am also well versed in Quran hadiths and sira. I have not found any contradiction between Robert Spencer books and islamic scriptures. If you dont trust Robert because he is a christian then go to ex-muslim websites faithfreedom.org and islam-watch.org if you want to learn from born muslim scholars like Dr Sina,M.Khan, Abul Kasim,Ayesha Ahmed, AK.Mirza and many more. "
Justin Smith wrote on Oct 9, 2008 1:03 PM:
" John Hubers:
I have been reading material written by Robert Spencer for about a year and a half, and I have found him to exhibit a high degree of scholarship. He cites specific sources to back up all major assertions he makes, unlike you, I notice. Would you care to list any examples of "legitimate scholarship" that you believe he overlooks?
Jeremy Nader:
You recommend people read the Quran to find out about Islam. I have read the Quran. Although there are some verses which seem peaceful and tolerant, there are also many others which advocate violence and hate (e.g. 9:05, 9:29, 60:4, 98:6, 8:12, 4:144, 48:29, etc.)
I am also familiar with the Islamic doctrine of abrogation, in which verses "revealed" later override the earlier ones (according to many Muslim scholars). This is a shame, since the worst ones were written during the later Madinan period. Because there are many Muslims who want to live in peace, it is too bad for them that this is so.
As a non-Muslim, I have a low opinion of certain Islamic doctrines, but my heart goes out to the peace-loving Muslims of the world. "
I have been reading material written by Robert Spencer for about a year and a half, and I have found him to exhibit a high degree of scholarship. He cites specific sources to back up all major assertions he makes, unlike you, I notice. Would you care to list any examples of "legitimate scholarship" that you believe he overlooks?
Jeremy Nader:
You recommend people read the Quran to find out about Islam. I have read the Quran. Although there are some verses which seem peaceful and tolerant, there are also many others which advocate violence and hate (e.g. 9:05, 9:29, 60:4, 98:6, 8:12, 4:144, 48:29, etc.)
I am also familiar with the Islamic doctrine of abrogation, in which verses "revealed" later override the earlier ones (according to many Muslim scholars). This is a shame, since the worst ones were written during the later Madinan period. Because there are many Muslims who want to live in peace, it is too bad for them that this is so.
As a non-Muslim, I have a low opinion of certain Islamic doctrines, but my heart goes out to the peace-loving Muslims of the world. "
awake wrote on Oct 9, 2008 12:41 PM:
" For some good information about the good Christian Pastor himself, John Huber, look to the comments section in the link provided.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023036.php#comments "
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023036.php#comments "
joe wrote on Oct 9, 2008 12:24 PM:
" Mr. Nader. It is not Americans hating Islam. It is Islam that hates any person who is not Islamic. Do you think we don't see those videos taken in London Mosques, with Imams screaming "Kill the Kuffars!" Do you think we are blind, and don't see those posters "Behead those who insult Islam!" Islam is a hateful religion that calls for the forcible conversion of non-believers. We're tired of Islamic false accusations of bigotry, your ad hominem attacks, your continual falsification and prevarication. Taqiyya, or lying to unbelievers, is an Islamic tactic. Watch out America, Islam is attempting to end freedom of speech and religion here, by attacking those who speak the truth about Islam. Believe what happened on 911, not these Islamic deceivers, falsifiers, and propagandists. "
KAOSKTRL wrote on Oct 9, 2008 12:20 PM:
" Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, The Quran and hadith make it make it abundantly clear that disbelief in Mohammad as a prophet of god is a crime punishable by death these are not a debatable points. Objecting to that is not hate. "
Mackie wrote on Oct 9, 2008 10:45 AM:
" To Jeremy Nader:
" I am not sure why Mr. Nickels asks us to learn Islam from people who make a living hating Islam."
Jeremy: how did you manage to reach the conclusion that people like Robert Spencer who has been a scholar of Islamic teachings for 30 years is some how deliberatly teaching hate about Islam?
I do highly recommend that as you have pointed out yourself in your comments, to do your own research by reading the hadiths, and the Quran.
But please don't come out and prejudge someone elses scholarship on the subject of Islam unless you are prepared to demonstrate that they are clearly wrong in their studies of the subject.
How did learning suddenly become a project devoted to hate in you mind? Go down and get a copy of the Quran today and get to work trying to discredit people like Robert Spencer,Walid Shoebat,Bat Yeor,Oriana Fallaci,Wafi Sultan,Bridget Gabriel,Ayaan Hirsi,Ali,Geert Wilders,and yes even Sir Winston Churchill.
Oh and good luck to you. "
" I am not sure why Mr. Nickels asks us to learn Islam from people who make a living hating Islam."
Jeremy: how did you manage to reach the conclusion that people like Robert Spencer who has been a scholar of Islamic teachings for 30 years is some how deliberatly teaching hate about Islam?
I do highly recommend that as you have pointed out yourself in your comments, to do your own research by reading the hadiths, and the Quran.
But please don't come out and prejudge someone elses scholarship on the subject of Islam unless you are prepared to demonstrate that they are clearly wrong in their studies of the subject.
How did learning suddenly become a project devoted to hate in you mind? Go down and get a copy of the Quran today and get to work trying to discredit people like Robert Spencer,Walid Shoebat,Bat Yeor,Oriana Fallaci,Wafi Sultan,Bridget Gabriel,Ayaan Hirsi,Ali,Geert Wilders,and yes even Sir Winston Churchill.
Oh and good luck to you. "
Irf wrote on Oct 9, 2008 10:43 AM:
" Robert Spencer cannot speak or read classical Arabic. He relies on translations of classical Islamic texts without providing us with details of the translation. He also doesn't speak or read Turkish, Urdu, Farsi or other languages in which the prominent works of 20th century political Islamists write. Yet he claims expertise in this area.
Spencer is no authority on anything other than bad plagiarism. "
Spencer is no authority on anything other than bad plagiarism. "
Irf wrote on Oct 9, 2008 10:37 AM:
" I wonder if this is the same Robert Spencer who objected to a book review which claimed it impossible to generalise about major faiths like Catholicism and Islam. Spencer effectively claimed it was ok to treat all Muslims as part of a monolith.
Spencer also objected to being described as a Catholic. You can read more about it here ...
http://madhabirfy.blogspot.com/2008/06/robert-spencer-completely-loses-it.html "
Spencer also objected to being described as a Catholic. You can read more about it here ...
http://madhabirfy.blogspot.com/2008/06/robert-spencer-completely-loses-it.html "
Kimberley wrote on Oct 9, 2008 10:17 AM:
" Poor "Christian pastor" John Hubers - He knows nothing about Islam.
In fact, Robert Spencer is the BEST. He is without doubt a scholar of Islam, using 100% accurate material straight out of the Koran, ahadith, and Sira. Go and check out what he says yourself! No one's stopping you! And, Spencer's "material" is not "hate-soaked" at all - in fact he goes out of his way to talk about "moderate" and "peaceful" Muslims. You wanna know what's "hate-soaked?" The Koran. The ahadith. The Sira. READ 'EM FOR YOURSELF! The political ideology of Islam is "hate-filled" and "bigoted," as well as Islam's representatives here in the good 'ole USA - CAIR. BRAVO ROBERT SPENCER! HEY HUBERS - YOU GOING TO TAKE UP HIS CHALLENGE, OR WHAT? "
In fact, Robert Spencer is the BEST. He is without doubt a scholar of Islam, using 100% accurate material straight out of the Koran, ahadith, and Sira. Go and check out what he says yourself! No one's stopping you! And, Spencer's "material" is not "hate-soaked" at all - in fact he goes out of his way to talk about "moderate" and "peaceful" Muslims. You wanna know what's "hate-soaked?" The Koran. The ahadith. The Sira. READ 'EM FOR YOURSELF! The political ideology of Islam is "hate-filled" and "bigoted," as well as Islam's representatives here in the good 'ole USA - CAIR. BRAVO ROBERT SPENCER! HEY HUBERS - YOU GOING TO TAKE UP HIS CHALLENGE, OR WHAT? "
Finn V wrote on Oct 9, 2008 9:01 AM:
" Let me just say I sincerely doubt that, judging from his comment, Mr. Hubers is a Christian pastor.
He sounds much more like a troll from CAIR. And he throws in the KKK, though the KKK are completely marginalized and haven't committed any acts of terrorism against black people in the U.S. for many years. Whereas, Islamic Terrorists are everywhere in the world, and commit acts of terrorism basically every day, somewhere in the world, whether in Africa (the Sudanese genocide going on by the Sudanese Arab government), India, Thailand, Indonesia, Western European countries and the U.S. Hey - Remember 9/11? The Islamic Hijackers were simply following Allah's commands in the Qur'an to "Kill the Infidels" and "Slay the Unbelievers."
It's obvious to me that "John Hubers" is an imposter, and definitely not a "Christian pastor." "
He sounds much more like a troll from CAIR. And he throws in the KKK, though the KKK are completely marginalized and haven't committed any acts of terrorism against black people in the U.S. for many years. Whereas, Islamic Terrorists are everywhere in the world, and commit acts of terrorism basically every day, somewhere in the world, whether in Africa (the Sudanese genocide going on by the Sudanese Arab government), India, Thailand, Indonesia, Western European countries and the U.S. Hey - Remember 9/11? The Islamic Hijackers were simply following Allah's commands in the Qur'an to "Kill the Infidels" and "Slay the Unbelievers."
It's obvious to me that "John Hubers" is an imposter, and definitely not a "Christian pastor." "
SwedishWiking wrote on Oct 9, 2008 8:59 AM:
" Jeremy Nader...
Why don't you read the Quran? I think you have read nothing in the Quran. If you have read it, you probably couldn't relate it to your daily life because it is so difficult to understand for us non-believers.
What you should understand is the dualistic message it sends to its believers. Hate the non-believers, convert all to muslims or kill them. Everything in the Quran that is a little bit of goodness is how muslim brothers should treat each other.
Do you know that islam allow slaves – THIS IS TODAY! In Iran, old men are marrying nine-year old girls – just like Mohammed did. Don't you see that muslims role model is Mohammed, a pedophile, thug and barbarian.
As an example, Mohammed conquered the Jewish settlement of Banu Qurayzah and ordered that all Jewish men be beheaded and their women enslaved and sold into slavery. Between 600 to 900 Jewish men were murdered. He beheaded at least two tribe leaders himself.
Now, that is a real role model to look up to! "
Why don't you read the Quran? I think you have read nothing in the Quran. If you have read it, you probably couldn't relate it to your daily life because it is so difficult to understand for us non-believers.
What you should understand is the dualistic message it sends to its believers. Hate the non-believers, convert all to muslims or kill them. Everything in the Quran that is a little bit of goodness is how muslim brothers should treat each other.
Do you know that islam allow slaves – THIS IS TODAY! In Iran, old men are marrying nine-year old girls – just like Mohammed did. Don't you see that muslims role model is Mohammed, a pedophile, thug and barbarian.
As an example, Mohammed conquered the Jewish settlement of Banu Qurayzah and ordered that all Jewish men be beheaded and their women enslaved and sold into slavery. Between 600 to 900 Jewish men were murdered. He beheaded at least two tribe leaders himself.
Now, that is a real role model to look up to! "
Mike wrote on Oct 9, 2008 8:07 AM:
" I, like many others, have read Mr. Spencer's books and I also visit his website on a regular basis. I have read from many other authoritative sources on Islam as well. I find Mr. Spencer to be right on the money, and in total agreement with those scholars and sources.
If you believe Mr. Spencer is a "hate monger" I recommend his Blogging the Quran series that can be found on jihadwatch.org. He uses the Quran (and Hadith) to bolster what he says.
A few examples of what muslims believe:
Recently an Islamic cleric issued a fatwa against Mickey Mouse of all things. Read about it here: http://www.religiousintelligence.co.uk/news/?NewsID=2771
What about American born Islamist who calls for the death of kuffrs (non muslims)by crucifixion and bleeding to death for 3 days as reported by a Fox News story located here: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,244263,00.html
Mr. Spencer is not the hate monger. It is those who choose to willfully disparage him for speaking the truth that are the hate mongers. It is those who choose to remove our freedom of speech who are the hate mongers, CAIR being first and foremost of these groups in America. "
If you believe Mr. Spencer is a "hate monger" I recommend his Blogging the Quran series that can be found on jihadwatch.org. He uses the Quran (and Hadith) to bolster what he says.
A few examples of what muslims believe:
Recently an Islamic cleric issued a fatwa against Mickey Mouse of all things. Read about it here: http://www.religiousintelligence.co.uk/news/?NewsID=2771
What about American born Islamist who calls for the death of kuffrs (non muslims)by crucifixion and bleeding to death for 3 days as reported by a Fox News story located here: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,244263,00.html
Mr. Spencer is not the hate monger. It is those who choose to willfully disparage him for speaking the truth that are the hate mongers. It is those who choose to remove our freedom of speech who are the hate mongers, CAIR being first and foremost of these groups in America. "
To Mr. Hubers wrote on Oct 9, 2008 7:40 AM:
" Mr. Hubers: You think Lebanese Christians like Bridgitte Gabriel hate Muslims like the KKK hates blacks? Seriously? And you call yourself a Christian?? The KKK has killed innocent blacks, and it is nonsensical for you to compare them with the Lebanese Christians who have been abused and murdered by Muslims.
Here is an excerpt of Bridgette's speech at Duke University that I found on Snopes:
"When the Moslems and Palestinians declared Jihad on the Christians in 1975, they started massacring the Christians, city after city. I ended up living in a bomb shelter underground from age 10 to 17, without electricity, eating grass to live, and crawling under sniper bullets to a spring to get water."
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/gabriel.asp
For those who want to know what Gabrielle and others lived through, you can hear her story on YouTube.
Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8fa9yKQeTY
Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0gBTEwATwU&feature=related "
Here is an excerpt of Bridgette's speech at Duke University that I found on Snopes:
"When the Moslems and Palestinians declared Jihad on the Christians in 1975, they started massacring the Christians, city after city. I ended up living in a bomb shelter underground from age 10 to 17, without electricity, eating grass to live, and crawling under sniper bullets to a spring to get water."
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/gabriel.asp
For those who want to know what Gabrielle and others lived through, you can hear her story on YouTube.
Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8fa9yKQeTY
Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0gBTEwATwU&feature=related "
Kinana wrote on Oct 9, 2008 7:05 AM:
" Indeed, research Islam yourself and form your own judgments. The primary textual sources include the Quran, Hadith (especially of Bukhari and Muslim), and the Sira. The Quran and some of the Hadith are available free online. You can also find Quranic commentaries (tafsir) available free, online, such as of Ibn Kathir and al-Jalalayn.
For scholarly reading I recommend Efraim Karsh's Islamic Imperialism, Patricia Crone's God's Rule, Rudolph Peter's Jihad in Classical and Modern Islam, and Walid Phares' The War of Ideas. "
For scholarly reading I recommend Efraim Karsh's Islamic Imperialism, Patricia Crone's God's Rule, Rudolph Peter's Jihad in Classical and Modern Islam, and Walid Phares' The War of Ideas. "
Rod Elliott wrote on Oct 9, 2008 6:24 AM:
" I notice both Mr. Nader and Mr. Hubers could not produce one falsehood, or inaccuracy in Mr. Spencer's work. . Why don't they prove their point by using examples of Mr. Spencer's work and show where he's gone wrong. Funny, how they couldn't come up with anything other than an ad hominem attack. Talk about spreading hate "
Kritischer Blogbetrachter wrote on Oct 9, 2008 6:15 AM:
" Jeremy Nader,
Spencer does exactly that - he goes to the sources. Yes, that's plural, because the Quran is hardly the only source. I bought his book "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)" about three years ago and it served me as a further introduction after I became interested, since my sister is a Muslim convert. He is right about pretty much everything and keeps stressing there is a majority of peaceful Muslims. But this does not negate the fact there are the things he critizes Islam for, and rightfully for. "
Spencer does exactly that - he goes to the sources. Yes, that's plural, because the Quran is hardly the only source. I bought his book "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)" about three years ago and it served me as a further introduction after I became interested, since my sister is a Muslim convert. He is right about pretty much everything and keeps stressing there is a majority of peaceful Muslims. But this does not negate the fact there are the things he critizes Islam for, and rightfully for. "
jim kennett wrote on Oct 9, 2008 5:23 AM:
" Mr. John Huber imo needs to take a look at Islamic countrys and then find out what happens if you try to take a torra or bible into for example our friend ad so called al Saudi Arabia no churches are allowed to be built there and the bible is not allowed and the there socalled religious police will conicate it and toss it in the garbage , i suspect pastor hubrt was in the state of israel not to have learned this and despite the labels and slanders that mr spencer gets smeared with i have read several of his book and checked what he says against the hadiths and the quran and found him to be very accurate and btw what race is islam again because the racist label is very inacurant "
Robert Spencer wrote on Oct 9, 2008 4:07 AM:
" Dear Mr. Hubers:
You write:
Robert Spencer is the worst. Claiming to be a scholar of Islam, he like his friend, Daniel Pipes, deliberately distorts legitimate scholarship to perpetuate the worst kind of anti-Muslim invective. The only reason he gets away with it is because most who read his hate-soaked material know nothing about credible scholarship of Islam.
Leaving aside the defamatory ("hate-soaked material") content of your words, you claim here that I "deliberately" distort "legitimate scholarship."
Prove it, please. I challenge you to produce from my books or articles, or from my writings at my website jihadwatch.org, even one false statement about Islam or its doctrine of jihad. Please also demonstrate from sources that a significant number of Muslims consider authoritative that the statement is indeed false.
I can be reached at director@jihadwatch.org. I look forward to hearing from you, and will publish your response at that site.
Cordially
Robert Spencer "
You write:
Robert Spencer is the worst. Claiming to be a scholar of Islam, he like his friend, Daniel Pipes, deliberately distorts legitimate scholarship to perpetuate the worst kind of anti-Muslim invective. The only reason he gets away with it is because most who read his hate-soaked material know nothing about credible scholarship of Islam.
Leaving aside the defamatory ("hate-soaked material") content of your words, you claim here that I "deliberately" distort "legitimate scholarship."
Prove it, please. I challenge you to produce from my books or articles, or from my writings at my website jihadwatch.org, even one false statement about Islam or its doctrine of jihad. Please also demonstrate from sources that a significant number of Muslims consider authoritative that the statement is indeed false.
I can be reached at director@jihadwatch.org. I look forward to hearing from you, and will publish your response at that site.
Cordially
Robert Spencer "
arah wrote on Oct 9, 2008 2:17 AM:
" Even many Muslim know what are written in the bible and the past history how the Christian missionaries killed million of innocent people you find no Muslim called themselves Expert in Christianity and spread hatred and bigotry.
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
Allah know best "
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
Allah know best "
John Hubers wrote on Oct 8, 2008 11:24 PM:
" Mr. Nikels,
I am a Christian pastor who lived and worked in the Middle East for over ten years. I have no affiliation with CAIR. But I also take exception to what you write here, particularly with regard to the so-called experts you cite.
These people are not credible commentators on Islam. Mark Gabriel has fictionalized his background as has Walid Shoebat in an attempt to give their anti-Muslim prejudice credibility. Lebanese Christians like Brigette Gabriel are not neutral in their opinions. Because of the civil war they hate Muslims like the KKK hates blacks.
Robert Spencer is the worst. Claiming to be a scholar of Islam, he like his friend, Daniel Pipes, deliberately distorts legitimate scholarship to perpetuate the worst kind of anti-Muslim invective. The only reason he gets away with it is because most who read his hate-soaked material know nothing about credible scholarship of Islam.
These people represent the worst kind of hatred and bigotry. CAIR is right to be concerned. "
I am a Christian pastor who lived and worked in the Middle East for over ten years. I have no affiliation with CAIR. But I also take exception to what you write here, particularly with regard to the so-called experts you cite.
These people are not credible commentators on Islam. Mark Gabriel has fictionalized his background as has Walid Shoebat in an attempt to give their anti-Muslim prejudice credibility. Lebanese Christians like Brigette Gabriel are not neutral in their opinions. Because of the civil war they hate Muslims like the KKK hates blacks.
Robert Spencer is the worst. Claiming to be a scholar of Islam, he like his friend, Daniel Pipes, deliberately distorts legitimate scholarship to perpetuate the worst kind of anti-Muslim invective. The only reason he gets away with it is because most who read his hate-soaked material know nothing about credible scholarship of Islam.
These people represent the worst kind of hatred and bigotry. CAIR is right to be concerned. "
Jeremy Nader wrote on Oct 8, 2008 4:43 PM:
" I am not sure why Mr. Nickels asks us to learn Islam from people who make a living hating Islam. We wouldn't consider learning about Christianity from someone who hates christians and christianity. The objective thing to do would be to go to the source of Islam - which is Quran. There are a lot of people and internet sites that propogate hate. If we are objective, we should go to the source, and do our own reading of Quran or any authentic Islamic books. We wouldn't want to learn about surgery from a witch, why would we want to learn Islam from Islam haters who make their living doing so? "
Comments are limited to 200 words or less.
Do not post:
Potentially libelous statements or damaging innuendo. Obscene, explicit, or racist language. Personal attacks, insults or threats. The use of another person's real name to disguise your identity. Comments unrelated to the story.
PLEASE, no personal attacks. Keep your comments directed to the topic. Personal attacks will not be approved.
If you believe that a commenter has not followed these guidelines, please send your concerns to our Web Moderator at mborchers@morrisdailyherald.com
Thank you for your comments!
Copyright 2008 Morris Daily Herald
1804 N. Divistion St., Morris, IL 60450
1804 N. Divistion St., Morris, IL 60450
You are viewing a mobilized version of this site...
View original page here
