Rebuttal to NAiG’s Article on Living Dinosaurs and Rebuttal to NAiG's Critique of livingdinos.com

                         By Phillip O’Donnell

 (Words in Italic are in their article)

"Answers" in Genesis' Inconsistencies in Endorsing Myths

Kevin R. Henke, Ph.D.

Paragraph 1 - In 1977, Japanese fishermen on the trawler Zuiyo-maru caught a partially decayed creature off the coast of New Zealand.  Some individuals thought that the remains were those of a plesiosaur, a marine reptile that became extinct about 65 million years ago. To their credit, the young-Earth creationist (YEC) organization Answers in Genesis (AiG) now realizes that the 1977 Zuiyo-maru creature was an ordinary basking shark and not a plesiosaur (also see: Jerlstroem, 1998).  However, AIG personnel and Jerlstroem (1998) are not the first YECs to abandon the Zuiyo-maru myth.  Their fellow YEC Basil Overton (1981, p. 73-74) suspected that this creature was a basking shark more than 20 years ago. 

Response - “a plesiosaur, a marine reptile that became extinct about 65 million years ago.†It is their opinion that plesiosaurs lived millions of years ago. In fact, some plesiosaurs might still be living.

 â€œ the 1977 Zuiyo-maru creature was an ordinary basking shark and not a plesiosaur.†I am not saying that the creature was a plesiosaur, but there does seem to be a slight possibility that the carcass might have been that of a  plesiosaur.

Paragraph 2 -  While many YECs no longer believe in the Zuiyo-maru "plesiosaur", many of them still proclaim that dragon legends are "evidence" that dinosaurs exited from Noah's ark and survived into historical times.  In particular, Alferov (2000) (also here) claims that On Dragons and Ghosts by John of Damascus (also known as St. John Damascene) (675-749 AD) is a reliable document that endorses the existence of living dinosaurs.  Unconvincingly, Alferov (2000) struggles to portray John as a trustworthy witness and someone that supposedly would not be deceived by rumors and legends.  As stated in the title, it would have been interesting if Alferov (2000) had discussed John of Damascus' beliefs on ghosts.  Nevertheless, as Carl Sagan often said: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Clearly, old stories in dusty manuscripts are not reliable evidence.  Although eyewitness testimony may be very important in solving crimes and interpreting other events, even modern eyewitness accounts may largely consist of contradictions, misinterpretations, and outright fabrications.  To prove their case, YECs must find a living or largely intact corpse of a dinosaur.

Response – “Clearly, old stories in dusty manuscripts are not reliable evidence.†But when you get similar evidences across the globe, then there is a possibility they might be true!

“Although eyewitness testimony may be very important in solving crimes and interpreting other events, even modern eyewitness accounts may largely consist of contradictions, misinterpretations, and outright fabrications.†True, some eyewitness accounts do have contradictions, misinterpretations, and some are fabrications (hoaxes). However, it is the author’s opinion that they “largely consist†of such. In my research I have read hundreds of accounts and of course they do vary somewhat, but mostly point to similar creatures of reptilian origin.

Paragraph 3 - Most YECs also recognize that the extinction of the dinosaurs is a problem for their theology.  If Noah placed dinosaur specimens on the ark, why are they now extinct?  If the dinosaurs failed to survive the "environmental changes" after the "flood", why did Noah even bother collecting them?  If the dinosaurs are extinct, why did God ultimately fail to save them from the "Flood" and its aftermath? Because of these theological dilemmas, many YECs want to believe that at least some dinosaurs survived and that they are occasionally seen and interpreted as dragons by various cultures or that they are now living in poorly explored jungles in Africa and Papua New Guinea (i.e., "Lost World").  YECs further believe that the existence of modern dinosaurs would be an embarrassment to the scientific establishment, which claims that the last dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago.  That is, if the Cenozoic record is really 65 million years long and modern dinosaurs exist, why are there no dinosaur remains in the Cenozoic record?  On the other hand, they argue, if the "post-Flood" geologic record is only about 4,000 years long, then "post-Flood" dinosaurs could easily survive into modern times.  Furthermore, if a "worldwide Flood" is really necessary to preserve large numbers of fossils, then dinosaur remains could easily escape preservation in modern sediments.

Response – “Most YECs also recognize that the extinction of the dinosaurs is a problem for their theology.  If Noah placed dinosaur specimens on the ark, why are they now extinct?†The “extinction of the dinosaurs†is no problem for theology because some are still living! The author of this article fails to realize this.

“Because of these theological dilemmas, many YECs want to believe that at least some dinosaurs survived and that they are occasionally seen and interpreted as dragons by various cultures or that they are now living in poorly explored jungles in Africa and Papua New Guinea (i.e., ‘Lost World’).†That is correct, but dinosaurs are not a “theological dilemma†for creationists!

Paragraph 4 - By citing dragon legends as "evidence" of historical dinosaurs, Alferov (2000) and his supporters fail to realize that reports of dragons and other creatures (just like the stories in Genesis 1-11, the contents of The National Enquirer, Elvis sightings, and the writings of the church fathers) may be more imagination, misinterpretation, rumor and exaggeration than fact. Legends and old drawings are not good scientific evidence. Indeed, the recent discovery of a 700-year old drawing of Mickey Mouse on the wall of an Austrian church should warn people to be careful of how they interpret ancient legends and drawings.

Response – “By citing dragon legends as "evidence" of historical dinosaurs, Alferov (2000) and his supporters fail to realize that reports of dragons and other creatures may be more imagination, misinterpretation, rumor and exaggeration than fact.†Again, I agree that some are, but not all. The author offers no evidence to back up what he is saying.

Paragraph 5 - Clearly, YECs are very biased about which fantasies they endorse, whether they are modern rumors or ancient legends.  Although many of them support dragon legends and show sympathy for the existence of the Loch Ness monster (another plesiosaur legend), I see no YEC endorsements for the Big Foot fantasy.  I guess that's because the supporters of Big Foot often claim that it's an ape ancestor of humans, and what anti-evolutionist could support that?

Response – The reason why most Young Earth Creationists don’t endorse the Big Foot legends is not because it is a relic of the ancestors of human evolution. It is because there is no reason for YEC researchers to study giant apes that may not even exist. I however think there is a possiblity that Big Foot might be real.

  http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/aig_and_myths_henke.htm

Livingdinos.com listed as a Creationist “Wacky Web Site.†My rebuttal can be read below.

     On John Stear’s website he has a section called “Wacky Web Sites†where he has listed www.livingdinos.com as an “atrocious†site. As usual Mr. Stear attacks Thomas Heinze’s article not with scientific facts, but attacks his credentials. And he also includes an article about the Big Bang that has been removed from my site and is going to be updated.  He also claims that “Phillip O'Donnell…makes the same mistake in relation to extinct species that other creationists make.  Their strange thought processes lead them to hope that should a species thought to be extinct be found to still exist somewhere in the world then it would somehow discredit evolution.  To the contrary, such a discovery would be most exciting for the world of science.† Then why are all the living dinosaur skeptics, Evolutionists? Not one has been a creationist (to my knowledge). And how can the evolutionists explain the existence of dinosaurs for over 64 million years without finding one of their fossils (“recent†rock layers). Trying to evade the question they point to dinosaurs that might still live in Africa (Likouala), such as Mokele-mbembe, where there are no fossils. However, from the Evolutionist point of view, Africa has had a lot of change since Cretaceous! And if the enviroment changes, so does the animal (From the Evolutionists viewpoint). So what if a dinosaur was found in Africa, mostly unchanged? Of course they couldn’t accept that they may in fact be completely wrong about the history of dinosaurs. So they just try to “explain it away†like they did with the Coelacanth, which they said went extinct 70 million years ago. However, a few evolutionists have realized this problem such as Dr. Phillip Kitcher, who wrote that solid evidence that dinosaurs and man co-existed  would “shake the foundations of the Evolutionary theory.

    Another evolutionist (Arthur N. Strahler) also said about the possibility of dinosaurs and man living together. “Such a find would deal a crushing blow to the widely favored hypothesis of a unique evolutionary sequence.†