Daily Kos

How To Read Polls Without Hyperventilating

Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:05:24 PM PDT

Every once in a while, it's important to go back to basics. Now, this is a lesson the talking heads need to learn, but it is helpful for us to learn the same things.

Polls are a snapshot in time.

They are not predictive. They are not definitive. They are, however, representative. To insist the data shows a lead today is not to insist that the lead translates into a win tomorrow, next week or next month.

Polls depend on good technique, good interpretation, and a representative sample

The art of the pollster is in getting this part right. It's not easy, and some pollsters have a track record of doing this better than others. Party ID is a variable, for example, so decisions about weighting affect the results of the poll. However, huge fluctuations generally raise red flags, particularly when no event to match the fluctuations occurs. Gary Langer (ABC):

"Trend is your friend," pollsters say. Look at repeat polls from the same organization to gauge movement over time. And, again, look beyond the horse[image] race to other measures: the levels of commitment and enthusiasm from a candidate's supporters, the groups that are more or less fired up, the factors motivating their support. It takes willpower to trudge off to an hours-long Iowa caucus on a dark winter's night. Who's inspired? How? Why?

With some exceptions (Field in CA, Selzer in IA), state polling is much more difficult and less reliable than national polling.

It's actually more important since we elect via the electoral college, but it's harder to do. But there is nothing more infuriating than having a blowhard like Chris Matthews insist, as he did today that this election is a dead heat. Take a look at the electoral estimate from fivethirtyeight.com to the right. Or take a look at the electoral estimate from pollster.com. Does that look like a dead heat? See the tracking poll data below for more.

[image]

Understand the difference between adults, registered voters and likely voters.

It is difficult to know, in a change election, who the likely voters are. Right now, LV based on past elections favor older voters, who skew McCain. Before the convention, it's best to rely on registered voters, but always make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

Get help.

Compared to 2004, there are many more polling resources available on the internet. Invaluable sites like pollster.com, www.fivethirtyeight.com, and www.realclearpolitics.com as well as Mark Blumenthal's Thursday series in National Journal should be consulted regularly (and there are others who specialize in electoral college estimaters). Other terrific resources include News University's online course in how to read polls (partnered with American Association for Public Opinion Research) and 20 Questions A Journalist Should Ask About Poll Results from the National Council on Public Polls.

There are also pollsters who write regular columns about their findings, and the art of polling. Not to be exclusionary, but Scott Rasmussen, Frank Newport at Gallup, Kathy Francovic at CBS and Gary Langer at ABC come to mind as frequewnt posters.

Some sites, like pollster.com or fivethirtyeight.com (personal favorites) allow comments. Read the comments. Ask questions. It's the best way to learn.

Media polls drive narrative, and often the narrative excludes other polls.

Look at them all. If the NBC/WSJ poll has Obama up by 6, and the average of polls has him up by three, then a new Gallup tracker that is tied doesn't 'change everything' - nor does the WSJ/NBC poll, for that matter.

None of that predicts who wins in the fall, but data will enhance your commentary. And the use of data would be a useful habit to get into. But don't be assuming a Bradley effect exists, for example, when that may or may not be the case.

Remember, when  polls don't fit the news or the feel you have for the campaign, something is off. It may be the polls, and it may be you.

But if you missed what's going on, and the polls pick up something happening, don't blame the polls and don't blame the pollster. Just use them to expand your world view. And, of course, wait for the next poll to tell you if it's a trend. And, for God's sake, don't compare a 14 point lead in Zogby (internet) to a new Q-poll that shows a 4 point lead in MI and claim this is a remarkable change. The previous month's Q-poll had Obama up by 6, so that's just noise. And as per First Read:

Regarding those Quinnipiac polls, don’t miss this: "Clay Richards, the assistant director of the Connecticut university's polling institute, said the Obama slide [in Minnesota] probably isn't as dramatic as the raw numbers reflect. Still, Richards said McCain is clearly stronger in the state than he was in June."

Rasmussen, meanwhile, says Obama got a bounce from the overseas trip, and the speech was well received by voters. Gallup today has Obama up by 6.

Previous election year polling shows that the conventions have a high (but not 100%) probability of shaking up the race. The impact of events prior to the conventions is certainly more difficult to pin down. As noted, the structure of the race this year appears to have snapped into place in early June after Hillary Clinton dropped out of the race for the Democratic Party's nomination, and it simply has not changed much since. Whether or not it will change at this juncture remains to be seen.

Take deep breaths and stop hyperventilating over those, too. And go back and review what happened in 1980. Ronald Reagan was the risky unknown. Reagan's move in the polls was very late, but it was decisive.

In the meantime, ask yourselves if the networks are cherry-picking polls they want to use to sell their narrative of a close race (particularly the usually ignored Q-polls) and ignoring the Rasmussen and Gallup polls today. The real picture requires looking at all the polls, not just the ones you like.

::

Tags: polls, 2008 elections, How To (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 178 comments

Daily Kos Help

 that seems like a lot of work... (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
oscarsmom, IamTheJudge

I think I'd rather hyperventilate and wait for the MSM... I mean traditional media... to tell me what to think.

 Clearly you are dissatisfied (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
boomonkey

with Obama's vague policy positions then.

Save the parrots: Drink shade-grown coffee!

by oscarsmom on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:19:49 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 and...and....and..... (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
oscarsmom, boomonkey

you can't quite tell whether the potential next American President actually being liked by our allies would be a good thing or not....

 all I know is that Obama fellow (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
feebog, nanobubble

has real problems with women and latinos. Especially the ones that work for a living.

And get off of McCain's case. Isn't he a veteran? Seems like I heard that somewhere.

 SGT. Rock (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
nanobubble, Randall Sherman

was a veteran.  But I wouldn't vote for him.  Chavez is a Latino, I wouldn't vote for him, and Ann Coulter is a woman, I wouldn't vote for her.

The important thing to remember is that Obama is the next president, and the whole world is watching.  Seems I heard that somewhere.

Ahhhh ....literacy in the Oval office.  I can't remember what that is like.

Now, I am on my way to the Sausage Haus for some brats and a nice Beck's Beer.  Or maybe I'll go to Aunt Chilada's, it's right down the street from Quinnipiac, and so am I.  43% of the people know that.

"I have killed moose....I have worn lipstick while....killing that very moose! While my mom played hockey!" ...some woman on all the channels recently.

by amthinkin on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:57:43 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Nate at 538 (10+ / 0-)

is the bomb. Every time I get worried, I just click on over and my blood pressure immediately drops.
Thanks for the great analysis DemFromCT!!

 Scott at electionprojection.com (5+ / 0-)

is also the bomb.  He's as conservative and right-wing as they come, but his analysis of the poll numbers is bang-on.  He got only two states wrong in the 2004 Presidential election (IA and WI), and nailed the 2006 Congressional elections (got the Senate exactly right, and did very well in his House predictions).

"Everybody has won, and all must have prizes." - Lewis Carroll

by Dave1955 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:15:47 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 What did he say about Florida in 2000? (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
oscarsmom, LogicaLizE, Dave1955

Just curious.

Voting Republican is like hiring a carpenter who thinks hammers are evil.

by dotalbon on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:16:48 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 "Democrats needed a bigger ballot box" [snark] (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
fleisch, Dave1955

Don't think he was around back then.

His "Poll Vault" only goes back to 2005, and I find no other Archives at his site.

Plus a Google of [florida presidential election 2000 site:electionprojection.com] only goes back to a 2004 Edition.

 I think he only started in 2004. n/t (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
fleisch

"Everybody has won, and all must have prizes." - Lewis Carroll

by Dave1955 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 02:05:46 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 338 Obama 200 McCain (4+ / 0-)

Agreed about his accuracy. A much better site than electoral-vote.com, its' more liberal counterpoint.

Scott Elliot's projection is much higher than others though. Much higher than Nate Silver's, who admittedly has a conservative bent (as he should) to the numbers.

Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

by Scarce on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:24:39 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Scott operates differently (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Scarce, fleisch

from Nate.  Nate clearly states that he is trying to provide a prediction of what will happen in November.  Scott's projections are a snapshot of what would happen if the election were today.

Scott takes a lot of variables into account, in a complex formula.  He looks at polls, obviously, giving more weight to recent polls, but he also looks at national trends, historical tendencies, and right track/wrong track numbers.

"Everybody has won, and all must have prizes." - Lewis Carroll

by Dave1955 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 02:08:43 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Agree 100% about 538... (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
oscarsmom, krwlngwthyou

...but be careful reading the comments!  The place has become a real watering hole for incredibly tiresome trolls.  

But if you can manage to ignore the idiots, some very good conversation takes place in those threads!

This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

by GreenSooner on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:16:30 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Link, por favor? (0+ / 0-)

is that "Poblano" btw?

 It's linked (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
anotherCt Dem

on the front on the official Kos blogroll. Fivethirtyeight.

Yes, that's Poblano.

 I ignore polls... (9+ / 0-)

because I worked in the business and I know just how few people respond to the calls. It takes very many calls to finally get a decent enough sample size and really, how much should we trust people not smart enough to blow off a telemarketer?

I prefer peace Wouldn't have to have one worldly possession But essentially I'm an animal So just what do I do with all the aggression?

by jbou on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:09:31 PM PDT

 There's a snarky comment... (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
jbou, oscarsmom, LogicaLizE

...to be made about the Iraq War in response to this:

how much should we trust people not smart enough to blow off a telemarketer?

...but I find it too depressing to formulate.

This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

by GreenSooner on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:19:02 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 I may be misremembering (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
jbou, Abra Crabcakeya, dotalbon

but as I recall, with a few notable exceptions, the Democratic Primary elections were fairly predictable.  

Of course turnout of certain key demographics will mean a lot, too, and I think that's only in our favor.

Save the parrots: Drink shade-grown coffee!

by oscarsmom on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:21:26 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 I blow off telemarketers, but I answer polls (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
jbou

I'll let readers of my other Dkos "ouvre" decide for themselves where that places me on the smart-dumb continuum :).

Numbers are like people . . . Torture them enough and they'll tell you anything.

by Actuary4Change on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:47:15 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 well... (0+ / 0-)

you must be a patient person because that little delay from the computer calling automatically makes me think telemarketer and I hang up.

I prefer peace Wouldn't have to have one worldly possession But essentially I'm an animal So just what do I do with all the aggression?

by jbou on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:54:28 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 You should update Pollster image to today's. (5+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
SLKRR, oscarsmom, dotalbon, CS in AZ, Dave1955

Net result is same, but today's pollster image shows AZ as a toss-up!

Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

by DefendOurConstitution on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:10:07 PM PDT

 and that should be news... (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
DefendOurConstitution, dotalbon

however, the reason it's closer i think is that Zogby poll... but reading into the Hispanic situation, i'd say we need alot more polling in that state to get a good read.

"Journalism" is Dead... RIP Summer 2008

by Hope Reborn on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:21:50 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Would be news as McCain is in danger of pulling (0+ / 0-)

a Gore 2000 and lose his "home" state.

Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

by DefendOurConstitution on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:25:49 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 I'm an Arizonan and........ (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Randall Sherman, CS in AZ

I'm doing all I can to see McCain loses the election. I'm also a 7th generation Arizonan and most of us don't even seem to know why he was elected Senator of Arizona.

 Update X2 (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Randall Sherman

Today's map also shows Virgina and NC as toss-ups as well.

Linky

Chairman Conyers, you may call your first witness.

by rabel on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:28:10 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 The whole point is... (0+ / 0-)

...that what Pollster shows today is no more important or relevant than what it showed yesterday or the day before or that it will show tomorrow. Arizona is a toss-up today, but may trend Dem tomorrow and Republican the next week. We won't really know until the fall, MUCH closer to the election. Remember, 8 months ago Clinton was considered the winner of the Democratic Primary, and Obama was a longshot. Now, Obama is considered the sure winner of the Election. That should give anybody pause.

 "Get help" (5+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
cph, bubbanomics, oscarsmom, dotalbon, Dave1955

Actually, your #5 is the only one Chris Matthews needs.

I went on my honeymoon and lost TU status! A rec would make a nice wedding present...

by phenry on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:11:12 PM PDT

 Rule #1 (10+ / 0-)

Watch McCain's number.

It is the constant.

In the national polls, he almost always is between 40-44%.

Irrespective of what else happens, that doesn't change.

The swing is almost entirely between Obama and undecided/others, which makes sense - the remaining not certain voters are mainly deciding Obama, yes or no.

If the election were now, the majority would likely go with him (maybe most). But since it is in November, they move around a lot. EXCEPT not to McCain.

That is what to pay attention to.

 Sharp observation... (0+ / 0-)

I have some personal appreciation for it, too.

I'm not sure that it will hold up all the way into November.

For example, if I were to decide "No" to Obama now, I would remain undecided to anyone asking.  Much as I respect McCain's service and how he acquitted himself 40 years ago, I have trouble saying the phrase "President McCain".

But I will vote, and, this year, I don't see any gain in a third party vote (my usual out when I don't like the big guys) so, it will be Obama or McCain.

Free speech? Yeah, I've heard of that. Have you?

by dinotrac on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:17:43 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Third Party Vote (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Randall Sherman

Barr and Nader are both going to be on the ballot in a number of states.  Barr, in particular is going to hurt McCain in several Southern states and could have an impact on the race.  In particular, I'm thinking of Georgia (his home state), North Carolina, and Mississippi.  Nader may be less of a factor, and in fact some polling shows him hurtin McCain as much or more than Obama.  I don't think a lot of Democrats are going to vote for Nader after the 2000 debacle in Florida.

 Barr may hurt McCain.... (0+ / 0-)

Don't know.

I certainly understand the dynamic of not wanting to vote for him, and that may be enough for lots of people.

At present, I'm just scratching my head as to what a vote for Barr would be for, as opposed to I don't like the candidate.

Free speech? Yeah, I've heard of that. Have you?

by dinotrac on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 02:07:21 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Perhaps a protest vote. (0+ / 0-)

A demand to the GOP to nominate a candidate i the future who isn't as flawed or as senile as John McCain.

 in the last WSJ/NBC poll (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
dinotrac, Ohiobama

Obama's up by 6 without, and up by 13 with, Barr and Nader.

most of the polls that have asked found similar data. States like GA and AK matter more than CA and NY re Barr.

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

by DemFromCT on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 02:33:07 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Add that to lack of excitement (0+ / 0-)

about McSame and it looks promising.  I just can't believe we don't have the edge in turnout, even if they do succeed in making the election All About Obama.

Save the parrots: Drink shade-grown coffee!

by oscarsmom on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:23:11 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 If that's the case (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
get the red out

then Barr and Nader's numbers will rise steadily while McCain's continue to flatline.  

Speaking of Barr and Nader, will they be invited to the Town Hall meetings/debates/whatever?   If they're positioned to take votes away from the GOP, let's get them maximum exposure!      

Voting Republican is like hiring a carpenter who thinks hammers are evil.

by dotalbon on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:24:21 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 No way (0+ / 0-)

McCain or Obama will let them into the debates.

"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

by mspicata on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:26:35 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 I wish someone would track (0+ / 0-)

the previous repug voters who HATE McShrubby III
& will never voter for him. I hope hope hope he pics Romney, cause ~ 1/3 of the fundies think Mormonish is a satanic cult

even the Devil slaves for the fortunate

by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:29:27 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 So... undecided won't move to McCain? (0+ / 0-)

Don't bet on it. A lot of those undecided are right wingers who hate McCain but won't vote for a Democrat under any circumstances. By the time the election comes around, many of them will have been persuaded that a vote for McCain is the only way to prevent the Presidency of an America-hating radical Muslim who will destroy the nation. Other undecided voters include Clinton supporters who have so far refused to switch to Obama but won't vote for McCain. Most of them will go to Obama eventually, but many will simply stay home and some will actually decided that they dislike Obama so much they will vote for McCain. And some people simply don't trust Obama. They may or may not vote for McCain, but they don't hate McCain the way most of the left does.

 Actually, in 1980, the published polls (7+ / 0-)

didn't move - they all predicted a very tight race.  I sat down in front of the TV at 8:00 expecting not to get much sleep as I waited to see who won, and it was all over by 8:30.  

As it turns out, the pollsters all stopped publishing a few days before the election, assuming that since they had been tight all along, they would remain tight.  But the tracking polls - the internal campaign ones - showed that the race moved dramatically after the one debate, in the last weekend before the election.

That's why pollsters now publish tracking polls, and continue polling up until election day.  They got it embarrassingly wrong in 1980, and they didn't want to be caught again.

"Everybody has won, and all must have prizes." - Lewis Carroll

by Dave1955 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:12:45 PM PDT

 You'd think they would have learned in 1948... (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mspicata, Darmok, Dave1955

"Partnership and cooperation among nations is not a choice; it is the one way, the only way, to protect our common security and advance our common humanity."

by SLKRR on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:18:45 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Matthews is a pill (13+ / 0-)

He said that Monday on the Tonight Show.  

He said Barack is up nationally by six points, but if you subtract out California, Barack's lead falls to four points, which makes it a dead heat.

Ain't that sometin'

The corporate media is deadly.

McCain: He's Constipated and Ready to GO

by Al Rodgers on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:13:16 PM PDT

 And if you subtract ALL the blue states (9+ / 0-)

Obama loses badly. This, like everything else that happens, is very good news for McCain.

I went on my honeymoon and lost TU status! A rec would make a nice wedding present...

by phenry on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:16:21 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 If only California didn't insist (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Al Rodgers, SLKRR, theran, BDsTrinity

on voting, McCain would be so much better off.

Damn libruls.  

Voting Republican is like hiring a carpenter who thinks hammers are evil.

by dotalbon on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:18:25 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 it's those San Francisco values! n/t (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Al Rodgers

Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
22 days until the '08 elections. Let's paint the country BLUE!

by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 02:41:16 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Subtract McCain's best high-pop. state, (5+ / 0-)

probably Texas, to make it fair.  In Olympic diving, don't they drop the highest and lowest judge's score to reduce bias?

Matthews was around during the Dem. primaries, when Clinton's campaign made it clear that California is one of the states that counts!

You can lead a Republican to the facts, but you can't make him think.

by Greasy Grant on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:21:59 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Pollsters need to explain themselves better (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Al Rodgers, get the red out

Matthews's mistake---he assumes the non-CA votes are uniformly distributed in space---is obvious if you know what you are looking at, but so many people don't it is time for pollsters to find a better way to present the data.

My general suggestions:

Ditch the margin of error language in favor of probability the leader is ahead.
Use graphics to show what region the poll applies to.  (Already done on blogs.)
Use graphics to show the state of the race.  (Already done on blogs.)
Adam Nagourney is not allowed to interpret data any more.

Manny goes to Hollywood :(

by theran on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:23:35 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 The silver lining of course... (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Al Rodgers, get the red out

..is that mis-representation of the polls by the msm to make the race appear closer than it is provides two benefits to us :

 Less Republicans may vote, thinking their State is definately a win for McCain based on polling
 More Democrats will vote, thinking the race is close.

Government for the people, by the people

by axel000 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:29:38 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Mathews is also...... (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Al Rodgers, TrueBlueMajority, axel000

pulling for a Senator Clinton VP spot. If he mentions it one more time, I'll....$#@!*

 TV's are expensive be careful nt (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
TrueBlueMajority

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

by IamTheJudge on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 02:09:40 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 To be fair he also said (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Al Rodgers, theran

that people should open their hearts and listen to young people and vote with them in mind. I think he was making a plea for Obama, you did too, IIRC, in your diary.

There still are two Americas. I live in the other one. John McSame wants me to stay there.

by high uintas on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:50:29 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Perhaps someone could mail Matthews... (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Al Rodgers

...the electoral map at the top of this diary, along with a message scribbled in crayon:

"Learn how to count past 270 or get out of way of real journalists!"

 Subtract one state (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
theran

He needs to take it state by state if he is going to subtract one state.  And state by state looks even better than national polling, electoral votes anyway.

He has to bend backwards and pull some of this stuff out of his ass with his teeth!

Fox news: Even better than meth!

by get the red out on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 04:01:04 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Everyone is Making the Q Polls the Standard (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
feebog, oscarsmom, axel000

That is a mistake.  A Rasmussen poll of Minnesota released just yesterday has Obama leading 52% - 39%. Who is more accurate?  Why allow yourself to get worked up over one poll that is basically contradictory to every other recent Minnesota poll.

Same with Colorado.  Quinnipiac has McCain by 2 pt.  While earlier this week three other polls of Colorado came out...all with Obama leading.  First there was the Public Policy (PPP) poll where Obama led 47% - 43%.  Then there was Rasmussen where Obama led 49% - 42%.  Then there was a Colorado based Democratic pollster poll that had Obama leading 45% - 41%.  Clearly the Quinnipiac poll is the outlier.

People need to get a complete picture of the polling before freaking out.  Obama leads both Minnesota and Colorado.  Get a grip!  

 Agree to a point, however (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
fleisch

Quinnipiac has a very good track record, better than Rasmussen.

But I ain't panicking yet.

"Everybody has won, and all must have prizes." - Lewis Carroll

by Dave1955 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:17:51 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 Quinnipiac Is Sometimes Off (0+ / 0-)

I remember they had Obama leading in Florida a few months ago and I thought that was way off.  They do have some strange results sometimes.  

But in this case, there are many polls from the same time frame that dispute the Quinnipiac polls in Minnesota and Colorado.  In Colorado there are 3 ones this week with Obama leading. The state is still a tossup but Obama has the advantage.

Another point everyone needs to remember.  Obama LEADS in all the Kerry states (252 EV) even with these Quinnipiac results.  Colorado is a red state....why are we hyperventilating over this solitary and incorrect poll showing McCain leading in a red state.  Shouldn't the story be Obama is threatening to take Colorado from McCain and thereby getting closer to magical 270 electoral votes?

 Who's hyperventilating? (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
fleisch

I just said Q's track record is pretty solid.

"Everybody has won, and all must have prizes." - Lewis Carroll

by Dave1955 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 02:10:30 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 I'm not disparaging them (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Dave1955

they do have a good track record, and besides, they're from CT!

I'm just saying using a single poll is foolish.

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

by DemFromCT on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 02:34:13 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 I don't answer if I don't recognize the phone #. (0+ / 0-)

So Obama's poll numbers are probably even better than what is being reported.

That's how it works, right?

:-)

The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason. -Benjamin Franklin

by HairyTrueMan on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:13:49 PM PDT

 obama votes (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
dotalbon, Tricky

obama votes are SO undercounted in these polls it is ridiculous.  Polling is still stuck in the 1950s.

They cannot penetrate into the cell phone users ( ie anyone under 45). They do not look at trends such as new voter registration numbers.  They usually are tied to myths such as republicans are more likely voters. They do not penetrate into the inner cities and/or represent the growing minorities populace in this country accurately.

POLLS are a business, and it has turned from a legitimate statistical sampling, into a scam business just tossing numbers out there.

These polls would FAIL in almost any college statistics course.

 I'm just afraid to rely on (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
HudsonValleyMark

things like this . . . the primary polls weren't that off, were they?  

I do believe in looking at the whole picture, though.

Save the parrots: Drink shade-grown coffee!

by oscarsmom on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:25:09 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 some were (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
oscarsmom

some were way off.
I could pull numbers out my ass and be close.  Doesnt make it scientific.  The media and these polling companies rely on americans ignorance of statistial analysis in order to get away with this.

 no, they generally weren't (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
DemFromCT, oscarsmom

Famously in New Hampshire, but generally not too bad.

 comeon (0+ / 0-)

gee how hard is it to predict your own state using NOTHING but a guess.  I live in Jersey, I'd bet Obama will win 52-48  and give me a +-4%.  

Man I would take that bet anyday, its free money.  Doesnt make me a scientific poll.

 No (0+ / 0-)

But pollsters are running scientific polls, and their information is much better than your random guesses, believe it or not.

Obama voters are not being massively undercounted. That was the thesis in '04, and it was wrong, wrong, wrong. The fact is, pollsters have methods of adjusting for problems like cell phone-only voters and underrepresented demographic groups (in a word, weighting). These adjustments aren't perfect, but with a large body of data you can kiss any notion of massive blocs of hidden Obama voters goodbye.

As for LV models, they are always criticized. But don't oversimplify by saying they just project Republicans as being more likely to vote. They project certain demographic groups--seniors in particular--who are disproportionately Republican as more likely to vote, but the LV screen is individualized, and has a lot to do with knowledge of and interest in campaign events, characteristics that do correlate well with chances of voting. Doubtless some pollsters are doing better at identifying LVs than others, but I guarantee you that even a crude LV screen gives you a better projection than simply taking registered voters or all adults.

 thanks (0+ / 0-)

That thing about the LV screen was driving me nuts, but I didn't feel like getting into it.

 and is 04 (0+ / 0-)

and is 04 now?  your assuming that 04 is exactly like 08. Obama is just like Kerry? the primary and the million of newly registered dems? the dean 50 state push, a minority runing for presdient, and on and on, I guess they mean nothing? because according to weights they do mean nothing.

try again.

Sorry weighing, is not the same as valid sampling.

Samples change, demographics change, voters haits can change, WEIGHING WILL ALWAYS MISS THEM AS THEY ARE BASED ON the playing field of the last election, not the current one.

Sorry charlie, I have too much history with pollig, sampling, and statistics to not question EVERY single poll/statistic/and/or result.  

 Cell phone only voters (0+ / 0-)

Looks a lot like land line voters within their own age cohorts. Weighting is a good solution to this problem. Not infallible, because if you get a bad sample of the small (compared to other cohorts) population of young voters reachable by pollsters, your results are going to get thrown badly. But over time and with a large body of data, that problem can be overcome.

As for transients, people without fixed addresses and jobs...hate to break it to you, but for the same reasons they're difficult to reach, they're very unlikely to vote. Undersampling people with these demographic characteristics may introduce a small bias into polls, but it's unlikely to have much of a practical effect on their predictive accuracy.

 sure (0+ / 0-)

But over time and with a large body of data, that problem can be overcome.

sure, thats what the pollsters keep trying to tell themsleves.  Its bullshi, cellphone usage, blocked and screened calls re a VERY real problem for polling institutions.

I did not fall off a turnip truck. I have seen firsthand the mess this industry is in.

Your landline sample is becoming a demographic sample of those few who are actually dont screen calls, are actually home, actually have a landline, actually dont mind wating 15 minutes on this crap, etc etc.  That is ONE HUGELY BIASED SAMPLE and getting worse by the day as landlines are increasingly being seen as a redundant unneccesary technology.

 one more question (0+ / 0-)

you obviously know what you are talking about. Let me ask you this question that bothers me.

While I dont have much faith in 2008 landline based surveys which I think I have made pretty clear.  I do/did have a lot of faith in exit polling.  So how do you explain 2000 and 2004?  It has to be one of 3 things.

Americans now lie to pollsters quite easily and thus all polling is now suspect.
exit pollig which has worked incredibly well for decades now suddenly doesn't for unknown reasons
2000 and 2004 elections were stolen

it can only be one of the three the way I see it.

http://www.rollingstone.com/...

 Exit polling (0+ / 0-)

Is incredibly unreliable. It is, in fact, recognized as the least reliable form of opinion polling. Marc Blumenthal at pollster.com has done some very in-depth posts on exit polling and its failings, e.g. here, here and this excellent three-part series , responding to the very article you linked. If you don't want to read all five of those links, I would highly recommend at least looking through the ones responding to the RFK article, because they go into great detail on the weaknesses of exit polling.

In short, I'm sorry, but your faith in exit polling was misplaced. While it's good to be skeptical about current phone polling, dismissing it out of hand is too extreme a reaction. There are valid critiques to be made, but what we saw in the primaries is that these pollsters, when their data is subjected to proper statistical techniques, are generating a very valuable resource that gives us a reasonably good idea of what Americans are thinking at any given time.

 Ill (0+ / 0-)

I'll concede

us a reasonably good idea of what Americans are thinking at any given time

with an eye toward the word "reasonable". They are far from the scientific scoreboard many make them out to be.

As far as those articles, I have read them and I am unconvinced by his findings. He doesnt convince me at all, if the kerry bias was so easily introduced we should of seen these type biasis throughout historical elections introduced agai and again and we simply dont really see the same giant movements IMHO

 O RLY? (0+ / 0-)

There are lots of mediocre polls out there, but I think you're hyping.

 hyping? (0+ / 0-)

How can two scientific polls sampling the same data show Obama up 14% and the other hav him up 2% with a +-4% error.  ANSWER- It cant, one of BOTH are flawed.

The problem is currently there is no good way to get a truly good sampling, so these polling outfits build in all these different factors to try to estimate and correct for demographic fluctuations and habits. Problem is these factors are just guestimates. Sure some may be a little better than others, but still biased guess all the same.

 actually, your premise is wrong (0+ / 0-)

A margin of error of +/- 4 is +/- 8 on the margin between the candidates. It's unlikely that two independent unbiased samples would differ by 12 on the margin, but far from impossible.

But even if we grant that at least one of the polls is flawed, that hardly makes your point.

 The media (8+ / 0-)

They decide what story they want to tell, and then interpret or pick the polls that reinforce that story. They are screenwriters, not reporters.

 Polls are worthless (5+ / 0-)

I have a very expensive college education and if what I was taught in my many many statistics classes is to be believed, the sampling done for these polls is utter CRAP.

If they were truthful and truly scientific, they would have to put a +-10% on these craptastic polls.

 You didn't get your money's worth (1+ / 0-)

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HudsonValleyMark

My condolences.

Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

by Scarce on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:27:31 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

 and your (0+ / 0-)

and your background would be...

 science (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Cofcos

fyi scientific polling doesnt allow for one "pollster" to show a 14% Obama lead, and another a 2% lead supposively sampling the same data pool.  Sorry, thats not how it works.  Back to school you go.

 Two types of error: statistical and systematic (0+ / 0-)

Hopefully when you were taught statistics classes the prof told you about the two types of measurement errors: 1) statistical having to do with sample size, and 2) systematic having to do with the measurement device or method (e.g. a mis-calibrated ruler).

The statistical error in a numerical sample is very straightforward. Just take 1/sqrt(N) where N is the number of measurements (number of people polled) made, and that gives you the fractional error under typical random assumptions. So polling 1000 people would give you a 3% statistical error. That means that if you take another poll at the same time of 1000 different people, there would be about a 2/3 chance that the second result would be within 3% of the first result.

The systematic error in polling is much harder to quantify in presidential electoral polling. How do you know that the sample of 1000 people whom you polled represents well the tens of millions of people who will eventually vote? Do you have the age, racial, and party affiliations right, for example.

Moreover, for your national polling your samples have to be fairly representative at the state levels since we have an electoral vote system with smaller population states counting proportionately more than larger population states.

My intuition is that the systematic error on any given poll is at the 5% level. Together with the statistical error, then you don't want to be surprised if two different polls show discrepancies at the 6 or 7% levels. Or equivalently, the "true" result is 6 or 7% different from what is being reported in a given poll. I think that putting a +/-10% error on a reputable company's polling result is too pessimistic.

 Rep Strong & Lean (1+ / 0-)

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SLKRR

Put together don't add up to the same as Dem Strong alone does. Interesting.

"For those Joe 6-packs playing a drinking game at home -- maverick!" Tina Fey as Sarah Palin.

by Bobs Telecaster on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:14:36 PM PDT

 it would be nice if all polls released crosstabs (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
oscarsmom

because then we might be better able to interpret what supposed movement in the top level number really means.

Sometimes we can guesstimate some of the underlying demographics by the limited info on crosstabs released in the narrative

of course, we also have to remember that sample size in the subgroups represented by the crosstabs is sometimes so small as to present one with a situation where it is risky to try to draw any conclusions

still, I'd rather have that data.

IT would also making comparing the results between pollsters a bit more meaningful

do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

by teacherken on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 01:14:44 PM PDT

 Most do make cross-tabs available (