"The Assemblies of God Executive Presbytery has elected the Rev. Doug Clay to the position of General Treasurer. Clay will take office April 1, fulfilling the unexpired term of the Rev. James K. Bridges, who resigned earlier this month after having served as general treasurer since 1993. " (AG Press Release, January 18, 2008)
Congratulations, Rev. Clay! And you can read Clay's blog here.
270 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 270 Newer› Newest»Celebrating this election...not quite sure I think this is celebraton material. Electing the brother-in-law of the General Secretary seems a bit limited in scope for people who continually claim to be visionary trendsetters of the 21st Century. Nothng against Doug Clay, but you can't convince me there weren't others who are as quailified and who are not a relative of the General Secretary John Palmer.
Anonymous:
What exactly would you have said to Jesus when he chose two sets of brothers (Peter and Andrew, James and John) as the first of his 12 apostles? Or for that matter when Jesus' brother James was chosen to head the church at Jerusalem?
George
Oh, one more thing: Before General Council, Doug Clay garnered a lot of votes in the poll of potential General Superintendents. In fact, if memory serves, many touted him as precisely the kind of leader who could take the AG forward into the new millennium. And now you're critiquing him because of his brother-in-law? Seriously? Do you honestly think the EPs chose him because John Palmer is his brother? I don't. I think they chose him because of his track record as a leader. The fact that John Palmer was his brother-in-law was incidental.
Congrats to Brother Doug Clay! I was just remarking to an AGWM friend of mine two days ago how I wished he was an executive officer.
My prayers are with you Brother Clay. Take us to new heights in planting seeds for the Gospel and advancing this great fellowship!
Lane - I posted a response to Dr. Davis on the previous post. You can email me if you want.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some people are helped along by position in ministry, through the years by family and others are passed by, call it the buddy system, nepotism, or whatever. When a decision is made like this, whether right or wrong- we should not be surprised that people will expect interpret this present news in this matter.
Fom what I know the Exec. leadership is made up of 6 individuals. When two of the 6 are out of the office meetings can be held and decisions made with a quorum of 4. If at meetings held with a quorum the two brothers-in-law are present they hold 50% of the vote. Is that a good thing?
Blood.......is thicker than water!
To elect a brother-in-law of one of the Executive Presbyters is not only nepotism at its worst, but says to the church world at large that the Assemblies of God has a shortage of qualified ministers to fill vacant posts. One does wonder what the other Executives were thinking, or were they just trying to pacify the new General.
As to what Jesus did, I hardly think the Executives are Jesus, and in the present culture, nepotism is still frwoned upon. In fact it is discouraged.
Under G. Raymond Carlson I was considered for a position, but G. Raymond Carlson said no becouse I was related to one of the Executives. It was a good decision then, and it would be still today.
George,
Let me jump in and share my HMO. People aren't questioning and being overly cynical. Just wise. I don't think the EPs elected Doug because of his brother-in-law, I think they should have gone a different route because of his brother-in-law. People are just naturally going to be cynical because they felt the election for the General Secretary was already manipulated/finessed by the family influence (Doug in the GPs stepping out of the nomination so John would have a clearer path). Then to compound the problem the GPs only put up two alternative names from 30,000 plus ministers. Nobody's debating whether Doug is a good guy. But just because something is lawful, doesn't mean it is expedient. My opinion... if he was the only one that was qualified, then he was a great choice. If he wasn't the only qualified man then it probably wasn't wisdom.
All this said, I am sure GOW and the EP's considered the potential criticism this would invite. Even though I don't agree, I commit to pray for our new executive leadership team.
My problem with the comments of the various Anonymi is that the first thing they have to say is not congratulations, or even what a great choice, but he's got a brother-in-law on the EPs. That's what strikes me as so cynical, especially when Clay received such plaudits on this blog prior to General Council.
Second, the blood is thicker than water doesn't hold water in my experience (sorr for the choice of words). I've got a dad, his son, and his son-in-law on my board, and the sharpest disagreements about policy usually are between the three of them. And anyway, since John and Doug are in-laws, the proverb doesn't exactly apply to them, does it?
Anonymous January 18, 2008 7:14 PM:
I'm not exactly sure how Jesus appointing two sets of brothers is nepotistic, given that neither set was related to Jesus. In the same way, Doug Clay's appointment as General Treasurer doesn't count as nepotistic because John Palmer didn't appoint him. For all I know, Palmer recused himself from voting precisely because of a perceived (though, in my opinion) not real conflict of interest.
So, let's retire the charge of nepotism. A group of individuals electing a person who is not their relative is not nepotistic under any received definition of the term.
GPW
As someone having as much to lose from this election as anyone, I can assure you of the integrity of the process. Not only is this fellowship gaining a tremendous leader, but the purity and leading of the Holy Spirit was never more evident than it was through our General Superintendent and EPs. I was privileged to witness some of the prayer, discussions, humility and integrity that went into this decision, and at no time was nepotism a factor whatsoever. There will always be many who we think could qualify, but that is because we look through human eyes. Thankfully, God picks the one that fits His qualifications, and I for one am glad He doesn't leave those decisions up to us.
Anonymous January 18, 2008 7:14 PM:
The more I read your comment, the more incredulous I become. As I explained above, the EPs electing Doug Clay is not nepotistic.
But the more I consider the various motives you suggest for his election, the more bizarre your suggestions become.
You suggest, for example, that selecting Clay indicates to the world that the AG has a dearth of qualified ministers to fill the post. But are you seriously suggesting the alternative, that the person whom the EPs consider the most qualified candidate should be disqualified simply because he's related to John Palmer? Or, to come at this from another direction, are you seriously suggesting that the EPs willfully chose a second best candidate only because he's related to John Palmer? You're in a bind here. Either you must believe that Doug Clay is the best qualified candidate, and should therefore be passed over, or that he's the second best candidate, and should therefore be passed over.
Then you write, "One does wonder what the other Executives were thinking." Perhaps they were simply thinking that Doug Clay was the best qualified candidate. Or are you seriously suggesting that the EPs can be cowed into submission by John Palmer?
No, not John Palmer! You suggest that my dad cowed them into electing someone whom they didn't believe was the best qualified candidate. In your own words, they wanted to "pacify the new General." Honestly--and I know he's my dad--but that suggestion is just beneath contempt.
At the end of the day, these are the suggestions you have put forward for why the EPs chose Doug Clay: nepotism, groupthink, and cowardice.
Wouldn't it be charitable, especially on the day the guy gets appointed, simply to be happy for him rather than automatically reaching for some dark, insidious explanation that along the way insults the intelligence and honor of the people who appointed him?
Just asking.
GPW
There's a lot of "anonymous" crap in here that simply needs to be flushed and forgotten.
Doug Clay is a man of character and virtue - the BEST MAN for the job. Thus, His election.
Never forget God's role in this vote & decision.
Congratulations to Doug Clay. It appears that he is well qualified. Let's continue to pray for our leaders and for James Bridges as he leaves.
The fact is many of us have relatives who pastor. Many ministries have family teams. I've always thought it would be great to pastor with my brother, but he won't move to LA and I won't move to Indy.
I agree with the cynics, however, that this will appear to the "unchurched" as another example of nepotism. But I think they are used to seeing that at the local level, so it probably won't alter their opinion either way. I am going to presume that the Execs are well aware of the criticism they might take, but believed that such a move will help in propelling the AG forward.
I also believe that the entire executive group takes their decisions seriously and would not let "in-laws" hi-jack the direction of our movement. (remember, we elected the leaders who appointed him). At some point we must trust the leaders God put in place for this time. If we can't do that, then there's no reason to even continue critiquing the 16 FT's -
Marvin J. Miller
mjmiller@palmviewchristian.org
George P... regarding Jesus,the brothers,etc...Doubtful Jesus and the brothers sat at cherry desks/tables in leather chairs setting policy and direction for Jesus ministry. By the time James was at the church in Jerusalem, Jesus had already paid with his life and had ascended to heaven. Therefore your point regarding this is invalid.
BTW The brothers did cause a problem with the seating assignments.
Concerning congrats here again Doug's not a bad guy, but IMHO it's a bad move.
Doug.... Congrats! I don't know you, nor will I ever likely get the chance to sit down and pick your brain, but I am glad God has placed you in this leadership position! May God bless the actions that you take and grant you wisdom in your decicions!
As far as the criticism goes, we must trust the decisions that those we have elected make. I don't care whether he is the brother anyone in leadership or he is some random selection. God will bless the ministry either way. Quit second guessing everything and let these guys prove their way. If something goes wrong, then you can come out and criticize, but the guy hasnt done anything to warrant criticism! Guy him a break!!!
Just wondering,
But if one had to be in the tribe of Levi, wouldn't every high priest be related to the prior one somehow...
And if so, how did they pick, since everybody was a relative...
Oh yeah, by the moving of God's Spirit after prayer and fasting...
Anonymous January 18, 2008 7:55 PM:
Your logic is impeccable. In fact, it inspires me to make this point: Since Jesus didn't post anonymous comments on FutureAG, your point about my point is also invalid.
GPW
George P WOOD denouncing nepotism is hilarious. I'm sure that his comments have nothing to do with his father being the head of the A/G. This was NOT a wise move by the EP's. They will take a lot of flack for this and rightfully so. Hit me with your comments now George as I know you will be you of all people should not be waving the banner speaking against nepotism. It rings hollow
This election just shows that nothing really has changed much in Springfield. Business as usual folks.
Testy testy George....calm down now
Anonymous...
If you think family members should not be allowed to serve on the GP, write up a resolution to hit the floor at the next GC and see how many people agree with you. This is one situation where a resolution could have effect since the GP would have to abide by the Constitution & Bylaws if they explicitly forbid family members from serving together.
Otherwise, you've made your point, so take it easy. Since this was an election (and not an appointment) ... I do not see the connection to nepotism.
Lane
Bridges was rumored to be stepping down prior to GC. I'm sure that this was an arangement to have him retire later so that the EP could apoint someone to fill his spot rather than put it to a vote at GC. Looks that way for sure.
I hope to goodness that the same people who were commenting about the ill health of our districts are not muttering under their breaths now about his election.
His vision and strategic position is exactly what we need to motivate and inspire multiplied districts across the A/G.
Who knows? Maybe that was a conscious thought in the minds of those who voted for him. Who knows? Maybe the comments left on this blog about districts and the shining example set forth in Ohio played a role.
That's change and it should be recognized and applauded. Many of us put their names down for a wake-up call. Thank you EP for listening to God and your A/G family.
Admittedly, I am a bit questioning as to the process. My questioning does not make me any less sure Bro. Clay will do an outstanding job.
I think we should all examine the hoops that we jump to get to a position,and the maneuvers we perform to have those surrounding us be people we prefer.
I hope that the comments concerning Bro. Clay's quality of leadership on this blog tipped the scales of the decision--allowing them to feel at peace with bringing in a young and exemplary leader in spite of looking manipulated at first glance.
Whatever the case, ultimately he is a great choice. I know he will continue to excel through the anointing and hard work.
I think a wise decision has been made in Doug Clay's selection. From all I have heard he is a top quality person who can help lead our fellowship to a healthy future.
However, I have a question.
Our district's recommended bylaws for churches, posted on our district website, states, "It is recommended that not more than one member of a family serve on the board of deacons. This is understood to include parental, sibling, and in-law relationships." Wisconsin Northern Michigan District Recommended Constitution and Bylaws for Class A Churches, Article VII, Section D, paragraph 5.
How might the wisdom in this for churches be different for General Council leadership?
Richard York
It's convenient to paint GPW into a place where he can't respond because of who his father is. But it is his blog for crying out loud. He should say what he believes. I agree with him, and my father drives a bus.
But this decision doesn't put a spotlight on nepotism for me it has put a spotlight on bitterness. Maybe the change so many of us long for isn't a problem of leadership but of the poisonous root of bitterness.
Ephesians 4:31 - 32 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
Come on guys…all this talk about nepotism and everything…remember this is the AG we’re talking about and it is the Midwest!! I once had a youth pastor who was getting married and he went down to the Greene County Records office in Springfield, MO to pay for his marriage license and the clerk asked a series of questions including, “Now are you and your fiancé related?” His response, being from Alaska and all, “I didn’t know we had to be!” Well, they do make exceptions in Missouri if you’re not at least third cousins, by marriage…(but not many!).
It’s called endogamy –marrying to keep property, wealth, and power within the family. And it’s alive and well within the AG. I’d love to have a dollar bill for every happenstance conversation I’ve had with other AG people that went something like this, “Hello, I’m Brother Smith from Springfield, IL (and my Sunday School grew 22.6% last year—but that’s another blog).” My reply, “Well, are you related to Jim and Doris Smith over in Chicago, they are missionaries to the Congo?” Response, “Yes, they’re Sandy, my wife’s aunt and uncle.” My reply, “Well, my son just married their daughter’s third girl, Jennifer—they were in college at North Central…” And on and on the family tree spreads…Oh yes, the AG gene pool has become a bit restricted. Have you ever heard of the "blue people" in the hills and hollows around Troublesome and Ball Creeks in Kentucky? A recessive gene in their blood line actually started changing their skin color. Maybe the pool of “tongue-speakin” youngsters is shrinking a bit and bona fide available marrying candidates outside the family are hard to come by?!
It reminds me of Ray Steven’s song, “I’m My Own Grandpa.” Here you go…
Now many, many years ago when I was twenty-three
I was married to a Widder who was pretty as can be
This Widder had a grown up daughter who had hair of red
My father fell in love with her and soon they two were wed.
This made my dad my son-in-law and changed my very life
My daughter was my mother for she was my father's wife
To complicate the matter even though it brought me joy
I soon became the father of a bouncing baby boy.
My little baby then became a brother-in-law to dad
And so became my uncle though it made me very sad
For if he was my uncle then that also made him brother
Of the Widder’s grown up daughter who of course was my step-mother.
Father's wife then had a son who kept him on the run
And he became my grandchild for he was my daughter's son
My wife is now my mother's mother and it makes me blue
Because although she is my wife, she's my grandmother too.
Now if my wife is my grandmother, then I'm her grandchild
And every time I think of it, it nearly drives me wild
For now I have become the strangest case you ever saw
As husband of my grandmother, I am my own grandpa.
I for one am glad our leaders actually chose and innovative District Superintendent out of the interrelated AG gene pool to serve…maybe he’ll shake things up and bring some of the great ideas from Ohio to Springfield and the entire movement!
Remember, you may be an AG redneck if, “You’ve been married three times but you still have the same inlaws!”
G.P.W.,
Don't worry about the comments of the few anonymous snipers. (I know you won't.) As a ministry friend told me years ago, "Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pigs enjoy it." :-)
--Dave
Someone said, "It's convenient to paint GPW into a place where he can't respond because of who his father is." Perhaps. But for me the bigest indicator that our frend had lost his bearings was his first line of defense was emotional followed by his "Oh one more thing....Clay got votes". When facts and logic follow that far behind emotion it is a sign emotions are running the show. Releax George. If you sit back, take a breath and wait a few minutes before responding, others may end up making your point for you.
Hey Ben. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on a blog where it is encouraged. GPW can say whatever he wants to say but so can everyone else. Disagreeing or having an opinion other than someone elses does not mean you are bitter. Some of you guys need to toughen up and not be so thinned skinned. And some who really have limited knowledge to the nepotism that definately has gone on in Springfield (and I have lived there and seen it up close and personal) need to open your minds to the fact that it just might exist and lives on through an announcement like this.
Since when do the unchurched even know who the Treasurer of the National office is? Why would they care and unless one of you anonymous fellows chose to tell them how would they even know Doug Clay is related, by marriage, to Palmer? Come on now. AND Why would we start off a conversation with someone who needs Jesus with, "Hey did you know that the National Treasurer for the AG is the brother-in-law of the National Secretary?"
This line of comments has to be one of the lowest points of this blog. I don't find that redneck stuff at all funny.
Quick, George, WWBGD?
Mary Jo...maybe people need to see the line of comments as a commentary of where the AG is more than where this blog is?
I don't agree that Pastor Clay's election is due to family relations.
Well Mary Jo it certainly didn't hurt him beng related now did it? I don't think there is any sinister plot here but the appearance is not good considering the short-term progress that had been made in changing the perception of what goes on in Springfield. Now there are questions that come up as to what really has changed if anything at all.
check out this picture of the new executive team. Cut and paste to browser.
http://www.tvshowsondvd.net/graphics/news3/AllInTheFamilyS6.jpg
Check out this picture of the new executive team.
http://www.tvshowsondvd.net/graphics/news3/AllInTheFamilyS6.jpg
The tone has changed since August when many wanted Pastor Clay in Springfield. Many wanted representation by a younger man, who was perceived as having a better understanding of the present needs of our fellowship and had a proven track record. Passing up on such an opportunity as to have Pastor Clay in Springfield because of his family relations would have been a shame. Having Pastor Clay in Springfield will only bring the A/G closer to being the absolutely relevant fellowship we all desire.
Anonymous January 18, 2008 9:25 PM:
You wrote: "George P WOOD denouncing nepotism is hilarious."
What are you suggesting? That I have my position as the pastor of a 100-person turnaround church because of my dad? Or that my dad has his position because of me? What precisely do you mean by nepotism? You throw the word around without ever defining it.
You go on to say, "I'm sure that his comments have nothing to do with his father being the head of the A/G." You know how I found out that Doug Clay was elected? By reading the comment section on Paul Grabill's post. I haven't even talked to my dad since Doug got elected. What has made me so angry about your comments and those of others is the reflexive cynicism they display.
Then you conclude: "Hit me with your comments now George as I know you will be you of all people should not be waving the banner speaking against nepotism. It rings hollow." Again, how precisely have I benefited my from my dad's job? I left a cushy job as associate pastor of a 3000 member church, moved 125 miles with my wife to a different city to become the pastor of a 100-person turnaround church. And my dad wasn't involved in the process of selecting me; my district superintendent was. Oh, and I'm up for my year vote tomorrow. For all I know, I'll get voted out.
So, in addition to your reflexive cynicism about Doug Clay, I guess you're just driven by some sort of irrational resentment of me.
How sad. Get over it.
GPW
WWBGD? She wouldn't be this cynical about Doug Clay's election, I imagine. She'd congratulate him and pray he contributes mightily to this movement.
GPW...your percptions of Springfield and all that goes on there is what rings hollow. No one has said you have a position because of your dad. But to try to get people to believe that your opinions and views are not swayed by the fact that your dad is GS is tough to swallow.
Is it intersting that disagreement equals cynical. Talk about getting over it GPW...get over it!!
The tone of GPW post really turned me off in his last post, I wouldn't want him as a pastor or on my staff with his attitude. Maybe with all of your anger Mr. GPW you should be voted out of your position. You really need to examine yourself, brother. Cushy job- assistant pastor is it a job to you or is it ministry? You are so touchy junior, people are rightfully expressing their opinions!
My word boys and girls...lighten up! GPW--we're praying for your vote tomorrow! Thanks for your input on this site.
Some of us are 100% behind Doug Clay--and Bob Cook is also coming to head up AG Higher Education (another excellent choice--I have no idea who he is or isn't related to).
Much of the blog sphere is just good-spirited banter. I personally couldn't care less who's related to whom as long as they will help change the rudder direction of the ship!
By the way, here's a good-spirited picture of Clay and Cook headed back to the Ozarks home of the Beverly Hillbillies: http://hoox.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/hillbilly.jpg
Those boys have aged just a bit. Too funny!!
Will -- it is me, not anonymous that made the comment about the unchurched view. Give our national media, NPR, some time and it will be reported on. Especially in this Grassley era. But that's OK, I think our leadership made a good choice. Most of us have family members in ministry. That's not necessarily redneckism (Although I love that song) but a sign of good Christian upbringing from generation to generation. Something that needs to be celebrated because there's not much of it anymore.
To anonymous -- leave GPW alone. I almost made his point last night. There's dozens of churches that would offer him a cushy job becuase of his dad. He has the integrity to follow God's leading to a hard place.
Finally, I think implementation of policy might be made at cherry tables and leather chairs, but I guarantee that the direction is formed in a much less spectacular place of prayer. Dr. Woods seemed just as comfortable sitting on a folding chair at a broken table on worn tile in an old building eating home-made Mexican food at a potluck with our poverty line congregation. I'll trust him to put together the team he needs.
Marvin J. Miller
I've got to tell you... I never expected all of these comments when I clicked on this thread. From my observations as a pastor in Ohio, Pastor Clay has never had to ride on any relative's coattails to obtain the level of influence that he enjoys today in Ohio. Here's the odd thing: I never even knew that he was related to Palmer... It has been a non factor in Ohio!
Congratulations Pastor Clay! Ohio is certainly going to miss your leadership as DS, but we're excited about the expansion of your leadership on a national level.
George...
Don't feed the trolls, my friend. They only grow worse.
Congrats to Doug Clay! He will do an outstanding job...and will be a voice for so many who are crying on this blog site for change...even those who are screaming foul that he has been chosen.
It has been my privilege to know both John Palmer and Doug Clay for around 25 years now. Both are men of impeccable integrity and are cutting-edge leaders. What is interesting is they each have their own style and approach to leadership.
Let us remember that when Doug Clay was appointed as National Youth Director and then again when elected as District Sup. of Ohio, it was not because he was John Palmer's brother-in-law but because he is a leader with innovative thinking and plugged in to the spirit of God
Wouldn't it be a shame if we disqualified leaders because they happen to be related to other leaders. Maybe rather than stressing over what "those outside" will think, we should watch this unfold. I think we will all be pleased at the outcome!
I apologize for the tone of my remarks. I have been disappointed by what I take to be the reflexive cynicism about the election of Doug Clay. But personal disappointment is not an excuse for acting uncharitably toward others.
George
Way to take the high road, George. I'm waiting for Anonymous (11:09 AM) to post their apology for the comment under that time stamp. That post proved my point made weeks ago that some use anonymity simply to sling mud and hide and not for "protection." I, for one, would have no problem, George, with you deleting that one. I'm sure the majority of the other bloggers would agree.
I do not think anyone is saying that Doug Clay is riding on John Palmer's coat tails. He's accomplished a lot personally and in ministry. In fact, John Palmer was technically unemployed for the year preceeding his election as the General Secretary.
My take is that people are questioning if this was a good move based on input like the blogger who stated the quorum scenario. They make a good point. If a quorum is 4 out of the six execs and the brother-in-laws are two of the four? I'm not sure this is a good decision in any venue.
Zorro to the rescue!
GPW, you hang in there, Trooper! You and I have not seen eye-to-eye on several issues, but you're a good man. WHAT LOSERS these guys are to pick on you ANONYMOUSLY and on a Blog site; and how UNGODLY.
There is no way the guys saying this stuff are in ministry. Let's face it...this is an OPEN Forum. Any wing-nut with a computer can post here, including SATAN!!!
Ignore 'em.
George P...you have to be careful, because you kind of prove the point (family). When the Trask Team was in office you never seemed to have a problem with the free flow of criticism that was bantered about (i.e. your friend Paul Stewart's post and others).
Now that your father is in this position and has a team and is being criticised you seem to "protest too much." It would appear your objectivity regarding the free flow of information has been comprised by your relationship with your father, which is natural.
Thus the question that seems to be concerning many on this blog site and throughout the fellowship, "Is it wisdom to place family members on this leadership team or will it set us up for unnecessary challenges due to family ties and loyalities."
There is long and strong scriptural precedence for families leading together: God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; Moses and Aaron (God took care fo the grumbling on that one); Jesus Himself appointed two sets of brothers (Blood and not merely in-laws) to His inner circle.
We need to be careful that we don't find ourselves on the wrong side of an issue due to emotional cultural misgivings.
Clay was appointed after serving very well in his last post. Palmer was voted in.
One last comment: someone said "the unchurched will look at this suspiciously." Do you really think the unchurched give a flip about our hierchy? It isn't even on thier radar.
Anonymous January 19, 2008 3:18 PM:
If you can show me where I have been inconsistent in my treatment of criticism of Brother Trask and my dad, I'm more than happy to publicly acknowledge my error.
For the record, I believe that no leader is beyond criticism, including my dad. Also for the record, I believe that there is a right way to deliver criticism and a wrong way.
I have striven in my posts and comments on this blog to call out what I consider to be ad hominem critiques that assume the worst about our others' motives and actions, critiques that focus on personality rather than issues, dark conspiracies rather than daylight facts.
But again, I'm more than happy to publicly acknowledge my error in inconsistent treatment of Brother Trask and my dad, if you'll show me where I've done it.
George
GPW just keeps feeding this thing. Just chill George and it will die down. If your motives are as pure as you say they are then why the need to be so defensive throughout the whole discussion?
Yeah, GPW, these guys aren't worth their salt. We're defending you, let it go, bro.
Long time reader/first time writer: I LOVE the exchange of views that I've read over the past several months. Thank you to George and others for opening this forum. I choose to be AG and to put my trust in the leadership. I therefore have to trust their decision to select Doug Clay. In my experience the current issue gets down to this: Right or wrong, whichever view you take, the decision is made. If anyone doesn't like it, we the people have the "power" to put people and policies in place so that OUR A/G refects US and future decisions reflect that. Let's work at making voting and policy-setting available to all and then participate in the process. Can we start a discussion about that? Bringing the "process" to the people?? MHO...
WHEN DO YOU GUYS HAVE TIME TO WRITE SERMONS, LEAD STAFF AND REACH YOUR COMMUNITIES?
This blog has become the "minority whip" of the Assemblies of God. I would bet your churches are suffering.
If you had time to write this on a Sat afternoon you obviously are not writing a sermon, leading your staff or reaching your community at the moment. Your statement is a bit hypocritical wouldn't you think?
Writing sermons? You've got to be kidding...this is the 21st century! That's what podcasts are for...I'm kidding! Haven't you heard of www.sermoncentral.com?
Why would a pastor have to lead you to reach your friends and circle of influence for Jesus (unless you're personally not being salty and bright).
Sermonettes by preacherettes make Christianette...ha! And GPW--I don't care if he is your Dad...he's doing a great job of bringing this rusty movement into the 21st century...Doug Clay is just what we need (what's a treasurer do anyway? count the $?)
My first thought exactly when I read about his appointment. He's an incredibly sharp guy. So what do they do? Stick him behind a desk counting the A/G's millions. Brilliant. I sense the winds of revival right now. (
"This blog has become the "minority whip" of the Assemblies of God. I would bet your churches are suffering."
uhh..NO. On the contrary; I can honestly say that our church has benefited from this Blog. I disagree with about half the stuff that goes on here, but it is still a place of learning for me.
In regards to time management; uh, I'm a Senior Pastor, so I think I better have figured that one out a long time ago.
BTW, where did all these HATERS come from???
www.SermonCentral.com is cool. (The commenter, not the site!)
And, as a matter of fact, I personally lead our church in 2-hours of street evangelism, did an hour of personal evangelism TODAY, and still had time to write on this thing.
TIME MANAGEMENT.
Dave Olsen & Will.
Let me clarify what I meant by my unchurched comment. I don't have as excellent command of language as does Lane, GPW, et al. Next time I'll hire an out of work screen writer and be more precise. Then, I posted anonysmously because I hit the wrong button and couldn't find an undo.
I was trying to make a point. 1) You're right, the typical person on the street doesn't know, doesn't care about the church hierarchy. 2) The media brokers, have in the past found these particular stories interesting, especially in 20th century pentecostalism. Think the Tomlinsons in early 1900's. 2) Bylaws in many places (i.e. Wisconsin) have been designed to be wary of such arrangements. 3) Charisma magazine has recently discussed such things in light of other recent events in family structured ministries and the Grassely Congressional Investigations. 4) I am confident that any potential negatives, including this very topic were thoroughly analyzed and were determined to have a much less negative factor than the positive things that will occur. Then the Spirit of God gives direction and trumps everything else. If all of us had never embarked on things that might not make since to the unchurched in this world, none of us would be in ministry.
Many of us were reared in a culture that championed meritocracy over all else. Status quo was to remain. Don't do anything or make any comment that might yield an ill reputation. Let me say this. A transformative leader will at times take a controversial stand, despite the misgivings of traditionalists in order to help make the hard change happen. Leaders who seek to maintain the status quo never have this to worry about.
At the end of the day, its all about how we are reaching souls for Christ. I think the most interesting news on Friday was not this announcement, but the article on the bar chaplains in Pennsylvania. My dear sainted grandmother would roll over in her grave, becuase back then we didn't drink or chew, nor hang out with those that do.
The future of the AG ultimately rests in how we creatively reach our world for Christ, not anything else. (for my senior friends, que the Christs Ambassadors' theme song)
Have a great Lord's Day!
Marvin J. Miller
mjmiller@palmviewchristian.org
George – Doug Clay will be a great asset to the Executive Team. His life has been directed by God. His positions were because of Doug’s abilities, and God’s blessing. Anyone who knows John and Doug will tell you – these guys will pray over every decision- what more could we ask for? We were voting for Doug in Indianapolis –because we know what he has done for Ohio. I see this as a God thing.
Bob Cook is another guy that will be a tremendous blessing to our fellowship!
We have moved into another era with both of these guys.
I am no prophet, neither the son of a prophet, but this will prove to be a great week in the A/G’s.
I am looking forward to seeing these guys add their hearts and voices to Springfield.
(George rest easy – God’s in control of the vote. Our prayers are with you!)
Tom Bougher
Wow........all the sudden poor GPW has become a victim. What about the people just sharing their honest opinion that in an out of control fashion he denegrated?
Don't feed the trolls...
Doug Clay elected as General Treasurer:
thousands of amens
George P Wood apologizing for his comments:
positive cool points
23 anonymous comments and zero anonymous apologies to go with them:
priceless
There are some things that blood ties can't buy. For this election, there's answered PrayerCards.
From: Australian AOG minister, Chris Sutton ... ... I'm not part of your American fellowship, so I tend to see things from my Australian cultural bias, both nationally,and AOG-wise, so here goes ... I think those who see conspiracy theories behind this decision, should know that in Australia, our Executive had two brothers-in-law serving during a 16 year period together. ... And they both served succesively as the Ass't Superintendent. Why? Because they were both anointed, proven leaders of great growing churches,and also very effective state AOG leaders. ( = District Supt's in US.) Also one of our current executive leaders is Ashley Evans, son of former Sup't Andrew Evans, whose father was Tommy Evans, a great missionaryleader in India and Papua New Guinea. Our inspiring current Sup't Brian Houston, had his father serving on our exec,before he did. I think it's a great thing,that this Godly influence has impacted families and generations. These 'relatives' have been recognized because of the fruit of their leadership and character.I assure you that they would have gone no-where,in national leadership, through mere nepotism. You have elected a wonderfully wise,generous hearted new Sup't in George Wood, but obviously he's not going to serve 14 years like Sup't Trask, simply because of age, so I think putting proven younger leaders on your exec team is good planning for your future,as a movement! Don't we believe God is in control,as we pray,and elect leaders?(... including those who have to chose new execs,when there's a vacancy. Or is that belief just something we preach for those in our churches to practise? ) Cheer Up! - Chris Sutton, Melbourne, Australia.
Wow...I have not had time to read this blog in a while....but in reading it today, I am shocked byt he lack of maturity (and the conspiracy theorist).
It sounds to me that a lot of people don't want to work together and solve problems-they just want to fight until somehow they can say they are right. I'm not interested in that kind of childishness.
Congratulations Doug Clay! I look forward to great days ahead.
Amy. EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion and just because it doesn't line up with yours or GPW's or whoever doesn't mean they are immature or divisive.
Proverbs 28:23 - In the end, people appreciate frankness more than flattery. NLT
Anonymous...
You are 100% right. People having varying opinions is not a sign of immaturity. But I am pretty sure that what Amy is referring to are the quotes that look like this:
Maybe with all of your anger Mr. GPW you should be voted out of your position.(11:09 AM)
You are so touchy junior, (11:09 AM)
I'm pretty sure that the word "frankness" in the passage you just quoted does not imply that this type of garbage is endorsed by God.
I would bet that much of the anger reflected in this blog's "Doug Clay Elected General Treasurer" string, comes from bitter hearts and reflects to some degree a form of grief over some unspecified personal pain or failure wrought in a preacher’s hard ministry struggle.
Life just isn’t fair and neither is the ministry. Hard ministry in the trenches of this world, the difficult places, produces what I like to call, “combat ministry fatigue.” This is what some of these guys are going through. They are lashing out. Some may even have dropped out of a ministry, for a time. I actually hear and sense deep hurt from these dog piling critics of JPW. Ministry does leave casualties and often these casualties react in this fashion.
So, let our response to the criticism be measured and nurturing, not vindictive and reactive. Let us also take heed, because many of us would be vulnerable to the same expressions of pain if we went through the ringer that some of us must experience. Compassion is in order.
An approach to such unbridled rhetoric might be a back and forth debate, but I believe we would be much more constructive to offer prayer for these anonymous commentators.
In truth, I can see how someone might be disturbed over legitimate nepotistic scandals in our movement. We have had and do have some. To deny this is unreasonable. Perhaps, the real issue from these critics comes from their feeling that they have been personally injured in some way due to such nepotism. We need to distinguish a harmful form of nepotism, where individuals are unethically elevated due to family relations, from simply facilitating competent family members into service because of a competence derived from a healthy Christian upbringing.
Thank God for parents who nurture their children in such a way that they want to serve in the ministry. Many of us can not do that. I wish to God that I had such a parent. So, nepotism may be a valid concern in the AOG, but to preclude skilled people, who happen to have family ties, from advancing to positions of pastoral or administrative authority in our organization is the wrong decision. It is a waste of resources; it is unfair; it is scripturally unsound. It is simply wrong headed. Balance and integrity should be the rule on this issue.
While I think it is an inapropriate appointment personally it won't affect my life or ministry one iota. I think actually that we lost on this one because Doug would be more effective as a DS in Ohio than a treasurer in Spfld. We got weaker as a movement through this appointment.
Now in the system that we have of guys moving up the ladder perhaps one day Doug will have more influence and help chart new direction but GW was pretty sharp all those years as the General Secretary but he did not have the impact he is having now because those positions just don't carry that clout.
Confident leaders bring strong, gifted leaders around them. The fact that GW is bringing these guys on board is evidence that he will utilize their gifts and listen to their voice. I'm sure Doug Clay and Bob Cook both asked GW if their contributions would be welcomed--and if not, they would have stayed in OH and CO. I think the treasurer role in essence is the Chief Operations Officer--lots could be done in this role to build effective systems that support the work of churches and parachurch ministies.
George,
We have only met a couple times over the years. I have not felt the need to comment on this blog over these past months, but something was said that has weighed on my spirit these past few days
An "anonymous" person stating "Maybe with all of your anger Mr. GPW you should be voted out of your position.(11:09 AM)"
This kind of statment IS NOT an opion. At best it is embarasingly cutting. I do not know what one calls wishing something so painful on another miniter. I guess it is the oppositte of blessing them in a sense. Slander on the wings of opinion is cowardly and there is no honor before the Lord in participating in it.
So be blessed freind and keep your head up. Class seems to be a dying bread in these types of internet atmosphers. You are appreciated!
I must say that news of Doug Clay being elected Treasurer of the AG was a bit of a shock to me. The shock came not because of Doug, but because I figured it would take a little while to find someone to fill a spot as specialized as that one.
I went to school with Doug and have always found him to be a gracious individual, and one who has been given many opportunities for leadership in his life. To my knowledge, he has handled each of these with a great deal of character. So, to Doug I say, "Congratulations."
Now, on to the bigger question: "What exactly does the treasurer do?" I find it interesting that there is so much frothing at the mouth about this issue when I would be quite surprised if most posting here are familiar with the job description, and Doug's qualifications in relationship to that job description.
My only concern is that with the growth of the financial complexities of the AG, I am concerned that we put a pastor in a position that might require someone with significant financial management training. But, then I don't really know the job. What I do know is that Christian organizations (the AG included) have a long history of promoting their brightest young leaders into positions beyond their expertise.
I would think that as smart a man as George Wood is, that he is quite capable of matching a person to a job description. Let's give the guy and his team the benefit of the doubt here.
As for the nepotism comments, will someone please point me to the biblical edict that prohibits the selection of a well-qualified relative to a position of leadership on your team? If this were true, half of the strongest ministry teams (small church, medium church, and large church) in the country would be in trouble.
Finally, for what it's worth, I vote that "anonymous" postings not be permitted on this blog. It took me far too long to figure out who is posting.
Here. My posting is not anonymous now. Feel better?:)
George O. Wood has worked hard to listen to the many various groups within the AG especially younger pastors in our fellowship. We saw that by Dr. Wood inviting all the pastors who started this blog to meet with him in Springfield.
Did you also know that Dr. Wood chose a 33 year old pastor to serve as his administrator in Springfield? That's a first!
Maybe we should look at the bigger picture and recognize we have a Superintendent who is doing more than listening, he's taking action and surrounding himself with new people, new voices, and leading this fellowship forward! Doug Clay is going to be a great asset to the Executive Team in Springfield.
What a privilege it is to have our dialogue, and freedom to do so, concerning matters of such importance as the direction of a movement intended to utilize the power of the Holy Spirit to reach as many people with the love of Christ as possible. The Assemblies of God has a rich history of doing just that. Yet, like any human institution, she has not been immune from engaging in self-destructive behavior. However, I would agree with those who urge CIVIL discourse in such a blogosphere of fellow ministers of that gospel.
That being said – and yes, I feel better now, as catharsis is apparently a portion of the purpose of this blog – th