Please pray for us as we do our part in leading positive change in the AG.
I am curious, if you had a meeting with the Executive Lead Team what you would say? What things should they know? How would you as Future AG blog participants like to be represented?
We will keep you updated as much as possible on that day.
40 comments:
Just tell them that they have our prayers support!!!!!!
Pastor Douglas Sidiyida Ouedraogo from Burkina Faso West Africa
Please make better curriculum and publications for teenagers. It is hard to work with much of the GPH curriculum. Thanks for representing us. I appreciate it.
TJ Reid
Won't speak for others, but personally:
- when I speak up (or out), I am not divisive or rebellious. I wouldn't even be making comments if I didn't believe in and support this fellowship. I'm only speaking up because I so deeply/ passionately hunger for this fellowship to be what I read that the church in the New Testament was. I want to be an agent of positive change, not a naysayer or rebel. I'm not a renegade.
- I'm messing with the methods NOT the Message. I'll try anything (experiment), stretch ideas and techniques, and challenge the status quo of church styles and methods. BUT I'll never challenge the sacred Message I've been entrusted with, and deeply hold to the mandate to preach the Truth of God's Word. Give me the freedom to try new and different things, even if it looks like something that's never been done before. I just hold to the premise that "if I do what's always been done, I'll get what we've always gotten." My heart is to expand God's Kingdom in such a way that eternity is populated differently because I lived and pastor under the Spirit's call and Christ's pastoral leadership.
-I don't want to mess everything in the A/G up BUT I do want to be heard. There are times when I have felt ignored or patronized. I don't need the leadership to change anything, just to listen and respond with affirmation when I put my neck out on the line and take "risk-faith" steps.
DISCLAIMER: Church planter (www.thelifehouse.org) for 4.5 years in Hagerstown, MD. Age: 31. Married with 3 children.
Let them know that laypeople are just as interested in seeing the AG church continue to move forward and grow worldwide, and to see even a greater impact in our own country than ever before. We desire a genuine move of the Lord in our churches, and we want to see the GC leadership inspiring pastors to move forward.
As a layperson I would also like to see more emphasis on learning the key doctrines of the church as well as in-depth learning of the Bible in our churches, including among our youth and children, allowing us all to better defend our faith and why we believe what we believe.
I know you are probably representing more the pastors, but here is a laypersons response.
Steve
Springfield, MO
We believe in you and in your competence - you were elected for a reason. But your decisions will only be as good as your data, so make sure that you really know what's going on both in our culture and in the Assemblies.
As far as culture, be very careful to avoid being trapped in a Springfield bubble - it's a very strange place to view the rest of America from.
As far as the AG, start spending time at the places our young leaders are developing - and don't go to preach. Ask a DYD when the next gathering of youth pastors is and visit to observe. Visit a Bible college unannounced and sit in the cafeteria during lunchtime. Head to a Chi Alpha retreat and spend the night sleeping where the students do. Call the director of a Master's Commission up and ask to spend a few hours watching and hanging out with the interns.
In each situation, ask the people you meet if they're seriously considering getting ministerial credentials and what factors are influencing their decision.
This will tell you much more about the health and status of our movement than you'll learn by merely preaching in a few different churches every week.
Uh... with all due respect, and prayer support notwithstanding, why am I taking the time to imagine a meeting with you in the first place? Don't get me wrong, I am sure your work is valuable and important. I'd just rather meet seekers.
What is my request of our leadership? Rend the veil of secrecy in management and administration that separates the national office from those of us in the field who support it.
Mark 4:21-23
Blessings,
David W Barnett
Hey guys. I work at HQ for the Royal Rangers dept and love your page. Stop in and say hi if you get a chance. God bless.
Question: What can AG churches do to better reach the ever-growing number of 55+ year olds? Our most creative efforts seem to be directed at the 18-34 crowd. Barna’s research suggests only a 10% chance of conversion after age 14. However, I fear we have interpreted this statistic to mean “older adults are set in their ways and are unlikely to get saved anyway, so why expend effort in that direction? ... besides, catering to their cultural preferences would turn off the younger unchurched individuals we seek to reach.” Granted, as good stewards we must direct our resources to those areas where the harvest is ripest. In the process, though, I think we’re overlooking a large chunk of Christ’s “whosoever” -- the many unchurched senior adults.
Steve
Please pass on my congratulations. I have prayed for this group for years, for success, for guidance, etc...
I would ask that they keep hold of the fire to see the nation reached for Christ. To long we have gotten lost in a arbirtrary debate over the exact nuaces of the "pentecostal disctive". We are pentecostal. Good, we are agreed. Now, let us run after the Lord like our brothers and sisters across the globe to proclaim the love of God (which I know is the heart of these men). I write this message in no way as a condemnation or criticism, but as an encouragement for the passion I believe these men already hold dearly.
I'm very excited to see the next step.
On a separate note, and I mean this in no offensive way, GPH is of no use to me in its present state. I think we have fallen behind in our publishing as a fellowship. We need to encourage our scholars to write, and then encourage them to publish with GPH. Get Terry Bleek to write his multiple volumes on the book of Acts, get Mark Jenkins to write on the Old Testament - whatever subject he would choose, and the list goes on and on.
We need to encourage our pastors to write, and to publish with us. I know of a few books (coughing noise, Mark Batterson) that would have brought some needed credit to GPH. But would the wide scope of people have access to these volumes? I think not because we have not made a name for ourselves.
We have been given a great gift in solid leadership that wants to engage a new generation leaders and ministry models.
Please let them know that we are praying sincerely for their godly leadership.
I’d like you to ask how a movement with such populist beginnings turned into such an out-of-touch and out-of-date bureaucracy. Ask if they are monitoring the trends in the marketplace to streamline and downsize organizations to make them competitive again. I view the AG the same way I view GM, Chrysler, and Ford—still acting like bigger is better and that there is really no threat from Eastern options.
Ask if Pentecost is so wrapped up with cultural baggage (dispensational ism, a divorcing of the gifts from the fruits of the Spirit, and a poorly articulated theology, and a rural-Midwestern identity) that it needs to be retooled to address the needs of a multicultural 21st century.
Ask if they understand the difference between “truths” and “Truth”—and if there is room under the AG tent for debate and difference of opinion on non-essential doctrines.
Ask why in order to stay in the AG many of us have to be ashamed of our ill-prepared, uninformed leadership, and embarrassed to openly identify ourselves as members of the AG because it has been under led and poorly managed for far too long.
Ask why a young person would want to invest their tithes and dues into an organization that has done little to remain culturally current since the 50’s or 70’s. District Council and General Councils appear to be working off the same tired agendas for decades, highlighting the same gospel quartets, and spending countless hours (and dollars) debating the minutia of parliamentary procedure and bylaw-constitution changes.
Ask if there are any plans to emphasize whole-person ministry: physical, social-emotional, mental, and spiritual. The anti-intellectual (and anti-physical and social-emotional for that matter) bias of our movement is shortsighted. God is not interested in our spiritual lives—He’s interested in our entire lives!
Ask if there are plans for the national offices to sponsor discussion websites, request letters to the editor for our publication, and open the movement for healthy dialogue (including respectful dissention).
Ask if they really think that correspondence courses, church-based institutions, and district schools are capable of producing pastors that are up to the task of leading and directing churches in our increasingly complex world. Also, ask the theologians in our universities are capable of producing culturally relevant pastors for local churches and not simply PHD candidates.
Finally, ask how those of us in “backward” districts (and have given up hoping for change) can look to the General Council leadership for advocacy, change, and progress. We’re dying for lack of vision and intellectual integrity at the district level.
Thanks for representing us.
1. What can we do to help the present struggling home missions pastors and recent start up crews instead of merely putting most of our resources into Foreign Missions and New Church Plants here? We seem to be happy to say we started a bunch of new ones without being as concerned about the struggling "new ones" from a couple years ago.
2. Why not create a totally anonymous easy to use survey to find out what the problem issues really are in the "fellowship" as a whole (that we don't like to call a denomination like the rest of the world calls us) without someone fearing losing their credentials if they voice a sincere concern. You can say what you want about people not telling the truth, etc., but there is a bigger unrest out there with some of our "twist" on doctrinal stuff, methods some are using to reach new people, etc. Are you afraid to hear that truth...or untruths as you may feel about it?
3. Has anyone honestly looked at the cost to run our district offices and is it cost effective? What is really being accomplished for that amount of money, property and resources. Are they serving or there to be served? Is there a better way or a more frugal way? Term limits?
4. How about term limits for anyone in Springfield? Fresh people with fresh ideas of what it currently is like to pastor a church in todays ever evolving culture.
5. Why not merge a few of our colleges who always seem to struggle and barely make ends meet with no relief in sight??? And help make the good ones greater and even some specialized colleges!
It seems that there is a serious need for a medium that would allow for good theological discussion about what the AG believes. For example, I happen to think some of the AG position papers are wrong and poorly argued. There is no avenue in which I can critically consider those positions and invite responses to my criticisms.
In times past this need was met inside the pages of the Pentecostal Evangel (perhaps more accurately, its predecessors). There was a lot of opportunity for brothers & sisters that love the AG to disagree about important issues and work to resolve them. Nowadays it seems like all that work goes on behind closed doors and then the 'official position' is handed down to the congregation. It's awfully similar to how the Magisterium hands down different theological and ethical positions to faithful Catholics worldwide.
I think that it is cool that even here we see a passion to reach out to both the young and old; both the churched and unchurched (or de-churched). What a huge responsibility leading this fellowship must be. I would like you to ask these men to listen very hard for the voice of God and then tell us loud and clear what He is telling them. I want to hear that the decisions that they make and what they are doing is not guided by some old code or standard, but rather by the living Spirit of God.
Having lived in Canada for 7 years, I have a new found respect for the national leadership of the AG. There are some wonderful aspects of the PAOC (Canada's like denomination), but one element lacking, in my opinion, is the ability to provide national programs. Highly organized events, such as the National Fine Arts Festival, simply do not exist. I think this is b/c Canada does not have the population base, and therefore does not have the money base to pull off such an event, but it could be philosophical reasons as well.
At any rate, in Canada, I missed the national programs that we could plug our kids into here. Also, their General Council did not have the amount of resources we find here. (Again there are other great things, but that's for another time!)
I think the reason behind our General Council and our national programs needs to emphasized. I wonder if the lack of enthusiasm about the District and National organizations isn't a "you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone." Perhaps some inspiration and education about the power of unity of thought and purpose is needed.
As for GPH, I wonder why we understand that Math, Science and such need to be taught from a curriculum in order to ensure students are learning all the necessary elements, but we don't understand the same sort of system is needed for teaching the Bible to our children,curriculum such as GPH produces. Perhaps we need some education about the validity of systematic study.
So to summarize, I think we need inspiration and education! Thanks for asking...our prayers are with the leadership!
I'd like to know if there is a possibility that the new leadership would consider national ad campaigns that would benefit our churches?
Jeff
Great opportunity and a hopeful sign. With new leadership, why don't you encourage them this would be a good time to sell the corporate jet, and besides saving a million plus dollars a year from a tight budget, (assuming, not inside knowledge) it would help avoid a image of "out of touch" executives. I'd rather have General Council dollars go towards having them fly first class than a private jet.
The corporate jet enables the execs to keep a schedule that they cannot with airline schedules. I personally do not think them "out of touch" for utilizing a tool such as this when they are just using it to do their jobs. I hardly think a corporate jet for an organization nubmbering millions of members and adherents makes them out of touch. Let's not restrict them from doing their job with flexibility because of preconceived notions that are not fair.
Jeff
Jeff, thank you for giving perspective to anonymous, who equates using a company plane with "being out of touch." In addition, anonymous said, "saving a million plus dollars a year from a tight budget (assuming, not inside knowledge)." Actually that would be inaccurate as well. Although there is never millions of dollars to spend uncontrollably, the AGHQ has never been in a better place financially. (According to public records from the AG...$11 million in the black). The Lord has certainly blessed wise stewardship! Finally, does critical anonymous realize that a plane can actually be a great investment? Planes are not like automobiles which depreciate very quickly. They often appreciate in value. I might add, at a very, very handsome rate of return. Check into it! On a pragmatic level for anonymous, it might be wise to curb your criticisms of these leaders until you gain their perspective. The Word tells me these men and women are "overseers" (they see the big picture vs. my limited view) of the church, and therefore, have a perspective that you and I probably can't even begin to comprehend.
Comments that are anonymous should not be published on this forum. If one does not have the "guts" to give their name little attention should be paid to their postings.
Why in 2007 the A/G still feels like a good ol' boys club. Where are the women? Where is the diversity of opinion? The truth is that people are afraid of speaking up - I've seen this over & over... in church, in Chi Alpha and on the missions field... why? Because they know that there can be seriously negative consequences if you stick your neck out too far in this organization. Even in this forum many of the most insightful (and constructively critical) comments come from anonymous users. Please don't use this meeting as just another opportunity to rub shoulders and pat each others' backs... sugar-coating our organizational problems & band-aid fixes will ensure that our relevancy will remain lost to my generation.
How may I serve you.
How are the Executive Leadership Team going to take anonymous comments seriously? Seriously.
As far as the jet is concerned, I'm sure the Pharisees and Judas were criticizing Jesus about his chartered boat. I for one think AG Force One and HMS Sea of Galilee were great ideas.
Moderators, please thank them for listening and opening up to alternative and new voices. Positive change is coming to the Assemblies - I can feel it.
Is there a chance that you all can digitally record the session in part and put it on YouTube (with comments disabled)? Perhaps make some of the talking points available for download. Then, embed the video and hyperlink the points here for comments - just a thought.
On that note, please tell them it would be great to have periodic fireside ELT chats via streaming video (with closed captioning) where we could ask questions through moderators.
Let's seize the opportunity to build on your momentum for more openness and "deck plate" communication. Think about it, a 3-month old blog, representing a collective, led to a meeting with our elected officials. We can do this and more. I hope and pray that districts are taken notes.
With the help of the Holy Spirit and more open dialogue, we can collaboratively retool GPH, make the AG more culturally relevant, trim bureaucratic weight, build trust, and pop the Springfield bubble. I move for more "cooperative fellowship."
"Comments that are anonymous should not be published on this forum. If one does not have the "guts" to give their name little attention should be paid to their postings."
Um, is the name "p.r. group" any less anonymous than just plain "Anonymous"? Does it take more "guts" to sign a screen name that has zero meaning to readers of this blog than to leave a post unsigned? Am I less anonymous if I sign a first name to my comments (even if it's only a "pen" name)?
In my opinion, if someone shares a valuable insight here but doesn't sign their name, I don't agree that we should automatically ignore it. Unless it involves slanderous accusations, personal threats or the like, I think we should at least read it with an open mind.
Undoubtedly some comments on this blog are unnecessarily harsh and come close to crossing the line (example: "many of us have to be ashamed of our ill-prepared, uninformed leadership ... [the AG] has been under led and poorly managed ...") but on balance, I see more constructive criticism than I do ranting.
"Unanonymous Fred"
I am going to be anonymous for the moment, because I have to bring up the one pet peeve that drives me crazy regarding my beloved Assemblies of God church community.
However, allow me first to address my church's Execs. I would tell my Execs that I am proud of them and their faithful service to the Kingdom of God. I am in awe at their steadfast devotion to the work of God. All have seen days of sorrow and days of joy. We need men like them (and one day a woman). We are blessed to have them as our leaders. They are in my prayers and I have expectations of a visitation from the Lord upon our North American community, because of their leadership, obedience and sensitivity to the Spirit of God. I have no other advice for them, other than to ask them to keep their ears tuned to God and to the voices of our people, and of course, also to the voices of our world. I have immense gratitude from the depths of my being for God's protection and sovereign hand in choosing our Leaders this summer. Praise Him.
Now, my pet peeve is simply expressed in one word. The American Heritage Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition reads:
nepotism [(nep-uh-tiz-uhm)] "Favoritism granted to relatives or close friends, without regard to their merit. Nepotism usually takes the form of employing relatives or appointing them to high office."
The increasing pervasive presence of nepotism is not a good sign. When an institution such as ours, allows important leaders to continue elevating their family members into positions of influence and power within the movement, trouble is close at hand. I can name several of our universities, positions at GPH, non-profit organizations, churches, World Missions, Home Missions and other areas, where nepotism has elevated less qualified individuals. Please don't mistake my intent here, I do believe that on occasion elevating a relative is justified, but the trend I see is very unhealthy. We have got to get control of this, because it, like any cancer, will do in the purity of our movement. That's all.
For me I would have to say one of by biggest concerns for the future of the A/G is the Missions arm of our movement. I can't begin to tell you how many missionaries I hear from on a regular basis who are at the end of their rope because they haven't raised enough support and are desperate to call even from out of state looking for help. I also grow weary of the guilt trips laid on me by other pastors who say..."Every church could just give $100 more to support this missionary." This is so frustrating because if I did that for every missionary in this situation we would go under as a church. My point is that our Missions Department is broke. I don't know what needs to be done to fix it but it has to be addressed. I hear churches brag how much they give to foreign missions while the people in their own backyard are dying without Christ. We must have a balance. I long for the day when churches would invest at least an equal amount of money into their local communities, their Jerusalem. And then from their branch out to support missionaries that are a part of the body.
Why is it OK to have "Ethnic Fellowships," but not Relational Fellowships???
Just a thought about the AG airplane. It is a Beechcraft King Air - it really is not thought of as a luxury aircraft in the same sense as a Learjet. The King Air has twin props. If you have flown in and out of Springfield you realize very quickly that it is a necessity.
"P.R. Group said...
Comments that are anonymous should not be published on this forum. If one does not have the "guts" to give their name little attention should be paid to their postings."
It must be said that pseudonymous writing has a long and honored tradition. The authors of "The Federalist Papers" and Soren Kierkegaard, the great Christian existentialist philosopher, are just two examples where pseudonyms have been used to state opinion and debate issues to great effect.
It seems that this blog is becoming less about open discussion and more about conformity to a particular style of ministry. That is unfortunate.
To the blog hosts:
I am alarmed at the growing harshness and sarcastic nature of the comments posted on this site.
It is entirely possible to facilitate dialogue and discussion--even differing opinons--without becoming caustic; I am not at all against honest disagreement as long as it remains above the lines of gossip and slander.
As the blog hosts, I belive that the responsibility falls upon you to guard the healthy tone the blog originally had.
Tim Enloe said: "As the blog hosts, I belive that the responsibility falls upon you to guard the healthy tone the blog originally had."
Yeah, so what's with the crack on the Twitter posts about Springfield not having good coffee? That was harsh. Did you go to any coffee houses on the visit? There's great Joe in this town. It's no Seattle, but we can hold our own.
Coffee Layperson
Perhaps this is obvious, but b/c of some comments I can't be sure.
Does everyone know if the name is in blue, no matter what name it is, you can click on it and most of the time (not all) learn more about the person?
For instance, if you click on "singing owl" (she comments periodically) you see this pastor's picture. You can then easily find their website or blog if they have one...and their real name. So internet names are not ALWAYS secretive code names.
Just in case...though I know it is so obvious to most.
Blog Hosts -
I'm with Tim Enloe, as far as I’m concerned feel free to pull the plug on any nasty anonymous commentators.
I don't know about you, but the guys in Springfield are on my team. We work together to benefit and build the Kingdom of God. And no, not everything that has happened in the A/G has been perfect. But this fellowship is the best one I know of and I'm proud to be a part of it.
I know that with God's help, we will see even greater days ahead. I believe that "you can move even a flawed organization toward excellence by becoming a pocket of excellence within it, by choosing to lead wherever you are planted." Boom Kevin & Jackie Frieberg.
Our ELT are men of integrity and men of prayer. They will be effective coaches as long as there are players willing to play the game. I know that they want you to WIN. Whatever is in their power, they will do to provide resources and best practices to encourage you and improve your ability to serve your community. But realize that Springfield is not and will never be our total answer. We must get on our knees and let God direct our hearts for our city. I don’t know about you, but their (the ELT) openness to speak to our blogger hosts amazes me. I appreciate their willingness for honest input. And I’m ready to put on my helmet and play.
Tom Bougher
Huntsville, Alabama
I have a burden to see a unified - ongoing marriage and family ministry throughout our churches. There is a lot of talk about teens and teen ministry. But have we truly considered the conditions of the home and families these teens come from?
Coffee Layperson, that was hilarious.
Tim et al, I'm sorry if I was one of the caustic commentators you referred to.
I see anonymous commenting as a detractor to healthy discussion, dialogue, debate and community building (especially as it concerns building the community of the Assemblies of God).
Imagine a general council where people come up to the microphone in dark shades, under disguise and their voice altered to protect their identity. What kind of message would that send to our constituency and those on the outside? Is that healthy? Is that open and honest?
I realize there are politics and repercussions in the Assemblies of God (I'm 3rd generation A/G and have been in ministry all my life), but nobody is going to get summarily executed over comments.
What's wrong with declaring the truth in love (sometimes tough love) and standing by your comments? Maybe by putting your real name and profile down, people can follow up with you and positive action can be taken (isn't that what we want?).
We are hoping that the ELT take us seriously and yet we can not be serious enough to stand by our own comments. We are hoping that they are more open and honest, and here we are as Pentecostal ministers (supposedly the most outspoken and bold) hiding under anonymity and pseudonyms.
Lastly, it would be nice to get to know who people are on this blog and who is commenting when, but all we see are "anonymous said..." up and down the comment line.
Who is Coffee Layperson for instance? All I know is that he or she shares my coffee enthusiasm, has a great sense of humor (albeit at Tory's Twitter expense) and is in the A/G - cool!!! Does he or she have a blog that I can visit? Does he or she know the same people I know? Maybe he or she doesn’t want me to know - oh well I'll just sip coffee on the other side of this AG blog by myself :-) - no guilt trip intended.
Again, I'm sorry if I sounded caustic or sarcastic in my remarks and I hope we can all bump into each other someday in a setting other than a comment line.
Is there anyway to start working on Resolution four again? I think voting that down was an illustration of everything that has been talked about since July. Talking to some of the Presbytery members -- they really supported it, which makes me wonder why the Pastor's did not pick up on it.
Thanks for representing us!!
Brandon Lemois
Remind us again Brandon what Resolution 4 was? Thanks
Jeff
Okay, I thought of a good one... why Springfield? I've always been interested in seeing our fellowship de-centralize and refocus our networking around population centers rather than broad geographic boundaries. Our district-level leaders are bending over backwards to visit hundreds of hole-in-the-wall congregations across many hundreds of miles, and I keep thinking to myself, "why are our top-tier leaders working so hard... and where are the local leaders?" I live in one of the youngest, most un-churched sections of our state and feel we have very little connection to our district office. I think this has a lot to do with our top-down philosophy that originates from headquarters and is duplicated throughout the nation. Time to pull the plug and spread to different outlets.
Resolution #4 can be found here: http://www.ag.org/top/Events/General_Council_2007/Business/Resolutions/Resolution_04.cfm
- Dan -
Please tell the General Council of the A/G to make a policy, rule or regulation that NEPOTISM and CRONYSIM within our local Assemblies of God is WRONG and UNETHICAL. I have seen cities and towns where all A/G churches are being run by pastors who are related to other pastors. The deacons are also related to the Sr. Pastor, the musical band leader is a brother of the pastor, etc., etc.
When new members see that our A/G churches (especially the Spanish ones), they go somewhere else.
We need a resolution be proposed and passed at their next meeting. If the A/G main office in Springfield, MO passes such a resolution, I assure you, the A/G church membership will double.
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