These are two questions that I ask a lot in my life and ministry. Why didn’t it work? Why are we not retaining a certain age group? Why did this many people visit once and not return? Why aren’t people staying? Why have we seen a 30% growth rate the last two years? And the follow up question… How can we close the back door? How can we do a better job at what we are already doing well? How do we reach the next level?
At High Point we are always assessing ourselves. We can be brutally honest and at times it’s pretty uncomfortable. In the end we have found that it drives us to higher level of success and keeps us grounded in reality.
One of the best ways we’ve found to assess ourselves is to listen to Outsiders. I love the opportunity to talk with someone outside our church who has just come for a visit. I ask them to tell me what we’ve done well and how we can improve and then get my pen and paper and start taking notes.
I think this blog has forced us to ask a lot of these uncomfortable questions and we have done a good job of self-assessing, but maybe its time for us to get some outside assessment.
I am sure that there is a firm we could hire that could assess the AG and help us figure out how to position ourselves as a fellowship for the next several generations.
But I wonder if there is another group of people who could be important for us to hear from.
There are a number of ministers who have spent a large part of their life and ministry in the AG and now are not a part of it. They are experiencing amazing outpourings of God’s presence and are seeing there ministries and flourish. I think of James Grogan, Dinno Rizzo, Greg Surratt, Darren Hughes and others. I am sure that you and I could fill the rest of this blog with names. They are spirit-filled, God-fearing people who could give us a different perspective to the reasons of they left and maybe how things could change to get them back.
I would welcome comments from those who have chosen to go independent or join another fellowship/denomination. What can the AG do to be more attractive to you? How can we help facilitate you? What do you see that needs to change and why?
I have asked a few people to send me some of their thoughts in order for us to get a fair assessment of ourselves from an outside observer. I hope and pray they respond with some constructive things for us to think about and implement
Thursday, September 6, 2007
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24 comments:
You might want to inquire about those of us as well that are still working in an A/G church but we carry our credentials outside of the A/G. We have a unique perspective as well. For me personally after having my spouse cheat on me and going through a divorce to then having the General Superintendant of the A/G tell me that "there is life outside of the Assemblies of God" for ministry, I didn't see the point of keeping my credentials and I turned them in. I love giving all my tithe to my local church who stood strong with me in the midst of a tragedy in my life! I can get my credentials back now...don't know if I will though.
If so successful, why would they want to come back? How many more would leave if not for fear of reprisal, getting sued by the A/G headquarters like an A/G church in Springfield, MO did and losing their property and facilities too.
I believe the dogmatic, our way or the highway, rigid non- compromising tenet on the "pentecostal distinctive" has been an issue. Primarily do you have to speak in tongues to be spirit filled and when does it happen? Is it instantaneous as some are some now saying you must have in order to be credentialed??? Or is that just a rumor?
For instance, at the regional forums held a few years ago for transition thoughts, everything was on the table to discuss but one item the A/G was off limits. Probably the biggest item that has caused so many to bail from or not join the fellowship (which everyone else in the world says you are a denomination).
I will not comment on the why or how.
But I will comment on Dino Rizzo. Great man of God pastoring an awesome church. But to say that he was in the A/G and got out or hint that he did hummm not altogother true. I dont think he ever pastored an A/G Church. Dino if you read this I am just setting the record straight. To say that he has spent "There are a number of ministers who have spent a large part of their life and ministry in the AG and now are not a part of it. " Dino doesn't qualify. If I were just a lay person I would quit my job and move to Baton Rouge again and be a part of that church. Love u Dino
fredore 60+
Tory...
These are always good questions and ones that, I assume, just about everyone is asking. The only one I take issue with when I see it (and I do see it more frequently)is the whole "let's ask outsiders" concept. Allow me to explain.
I should say up front that if, by outsiders, you are referring to people who are already Christians but simply visiting your church... then my comments here are invalid. But if you mean anyone who visits, including the unbeliever, I have concerns.
One of the comments I made in the most recent discussion about revitalization vs. planting was that we need to focus more on believers BEING the church rather than outsiders COMING to church. To poll an unbeliever as to what they liked or did not is to play the game of focusing your efforts on the latter. The data you collect will tell you how to draw a crowd... not build a church.
Want evidence? Just ask Willow. I think everyone would agree that they have been on the cutting edge of being seeker-sensitive for the past decade. Yet at the Summit this year, Hybels unveiled an incredibly transparent and eye-opening fact. What they had not done during those years was to focus on building believers. After years of extensive polling OUTSIDE their church they finally turned the microscope INWARD... and what they found was that their disciples were horribly un-satisfied. This led to a massive survey and analysis effort that was just recently published. It is more than worth the read.
Rather than continue to lag behind these types of churches as we always do, we should learn from their mistakes and stand on their shoulders. To ask an unbeliever what our church services should be like is the equivalent of asking a person who has never visited the hospital how an ER should function. They simply will not have the adequate context to answer such a question.
The heart of your questions are good, and I applaud (and support) that. Only let's make sure that we are clear what our Lord has asked us to do. We are called to make disciples (Matt. 28:19)... He is the one with the burden of building His church. (Matt. 16:18; Acts 2:47) Let's seek to do data analysis that keeps this in mind.
Let us please use great wisdom and discretion in opening this forum to individuals who have left the A/G. Absolutely, listen to their why's and reasons. That information could be tremendously beneficial. However, there may [let me stress 'may'] be those who have unwarrented complaints about our fellowship. There could also be those whose story we may not totally receive by hearing only their particular slant. Others could [ again I stress the word 'could']use this great site to tear down our fellowship. That would indeed be tragic.
Let us ALL, please use the wisdom of the Holy Spirit in commenting to this specific blog request. Our comments and thoughts must have a goal to assist this movement learn from mistakes, change our current patterns and strive for a comprehensive look at what we may be doing right as well as what we are grossly negligent in.
Blessings...
w.g.smith
I could have been wrong about Dino and Healing Place. I just assumed they were never A/G. I know it started at a Church of God and grew. They could have been A/g MY BAD.
fredore
Hey, like the thoughts. I think the US AG needs to have a good look at the Australian AoG.
The vitality, leadership, expansion of the Australian AoG (AG) is something the US needs to look at.
The movement needs to be led by those that ARE presently leaders of their own churches and movements not those that have disconected and become primarily managerial administrators.
Brian Houston is presently the President of the Australian AoG and Pastor of Hillsong.
Our Movement in Australia is not just a movement of churches but a movement of movements. Allow dynamic Apostolic style leaders grow and expand movements within and beyond the boundaries of the movement.
Why are fellas like Matthew and Tommy Barnett not national leaders. Why is everything centralised? Why don't churches locally become the primary training colleges and sending agencies?
I have seen some encouraging signs with groups such as Elements Church and its small movement (www.elementsmovement.com)
Josh
LifeCity Church Canberra
www.lifecitychurch.com
I understand the benefit of listening to the reasons why some stallions umped fence and left our corrall. We need to deal with the issues that drive innovative leaders away.
However, to desire to "attract them back" is ridiculous. They are making a significant impact for the Kingdom of God - who cares what banner they fight under. Why would they want to come under the AG if what they are doing is working and what would be our motivation in recruiting them.
There feedback may be helpful in raising up a new crop of creative leaders, but this thing of "let's get the successful guys in our camp" stinks.
The desire to "be attractive to them" and "get them back with us" is akin to trying to build our local fellowships on transfer growth.
The second anonymous comment referred to everything being on the table but the doctrines. I agree that we can benfit from hearing from those who have left if they have some positive things to say. But I have two concerns:
1. Many of these folks have an axe to grind. The Proverbs remind us that there are two sides to every story.
2. Differences in doctrine is a reason that a pastor should leave the AG. This is a voluntary fellowship and if you disagree with the 16 Fundamental Truths then find a church that you agree with don't try to be contentious about it.
I think it's important to make sure comments are coming from those who are no longer A/G and left by resignation rather than dismissal.
I would echo Lane's comment regarding the term "outsider": But if you mean anyone who visits, including the unbeliever, I have concerns.
I believe that, while we are not about the business of alienating the unbeliever, we should also not be in the business of letting their desires dictate our methodology. To do so is essentially following an "evangelical capitalism" approach - and isn't it that very approach that is vilified by the emerging generation?
If outsiders desire "relevant" messages and are put off by expository preaching, do we capitulate? If outsiders find the worship songs we sing to be boring, do we proceed to make it "fun"? If outsiders find our ways to be mysterious, should we be surprised?
I also agree with Lane in that if, by the term "outsider", you simply mean an "insider" (another Christian) not from your church, then the context changes. However, I think that in those cases we, and they, need to understand that our desires for more productive methods should be subservient to our responsibilities as Christ followers.
Rusty Lopez
Those who have concerns about listening to those that have left the A/G most likely do not listen to why people leave their churches either. How will we learn unless we listen? Granted there will be some with an ax to grind but others can share significant information that we can learn and grow from.
I believe if we are talking about soliciting the thoughts of ministers who have left the A/G (as opposed to laymen or unbelievers) it would be a worthwhile discussion.
I am 35 years old, graduated from CBC, worked on my masters at a non-A/G seminary and can come up with ten men off the top of my head that were saved/discipled/educated (at least to BA) in the A/G and have lest to minister in other denominations.
Two of them are among my best friends in the world and our conversations regarding their reasons for leaving are fascinating. I think that a broader investigation along those lines would be illuminating.
I am not arguing that we adjust core beliefs or practices to please those who, for whatever reason have left, as one contributor said if they are ministering effectively where they are Praise God. But I do think that their experiences may reveal issues that we are blind to as ‘insiders’ and could help us communicate some of those core values with increasing effectiveness.
As another cautioned, and I have personally experienced, some are bitter or have career/personal interests that drove them to their decision; but I believe that tone is usually apparent and their axes easily ignored.
Now the $64,000 question – is there an effective way to do this on a large scale or does this simply spur individual discussions?
By the way, I am enjoying the discussions. My thanks to those who began this blog.
Denominations [or fellowships] are typically not willing to put their doctrines and sacred practices on the table until they have shrunk in size so much that survival is at stake. And the matter becomes a business move.
Where is the American AG? Is survival at stake? Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this?
At the turn of the last century, the methodical practices of the Methodists where culturally relevant and it was a powerful movement. It was in the midst of the age of science. Methodists have failed to spiritually adapt and are fading into obscurity.
The AG is culturally relevant in much of Asia, Africa and South America. The Pentecostal church is prospering in those areas.
The American AG is in the midst of dramatic cultural change in our society. We will either adapt or fade into obscurity. My prayer is that the Holy Spirit leads us into culturally relevant, Biblical Christianity.
Tory
One of the challenges that exist within the A/G is the distinction between hierarchal and congregational. Is the A/G a voluntary cooperative fellowship or a denomination? For many of us the A/G works best when it functions as a fellowship. As a fellowship we are able to adjust our traditions and modify our services to reach an ever changing world. As a denomination the A/G is in trouble like any other denomination. As a fellowship we had a certain attraction both to the un-churched and to innovative young leaders zealous for God. As a denomination we have become more attractive to the churched, converting a Baptist Christian into a A/G Christian. Until this issues is resolved, (denomination, fellowship, hierarchal or congregational) there will continue to exist a trust barrier and unfortunately a departure of our future.
How and Why? You have my interest! FYI: I am currently ministering in a non A/G church. There is however little or no difference with the doctrine and teaching of the A/G. So, I am very concerned and would love to see this church encouraged to become a fellowship recognized by the A/G. Where is ‘Cooperative Fellowship” in all this?
Why do young pastors begin churches under an inter or non denominational flag?
Could it be that they no longer feel the purpose/effectiveness of belonging to a denomination? What do we have to offer these young pastors? In other words … “Why should they join the A/G?”
We have to be able to offer them something. Those words hurt me too. I want and desire to see the A/G flourish, because I still believe it is the BEST denomination available. But most of all, I want to see God’s Kingdom extended in America and around the world.
Could it be that our districts have shunned young pastors, who desired to start a new work in an area where other A/G churches exist? Check out where I live, we have 3 very established A/G works, none reaching even 200 people every week. This new work, a little over 7 years old is now running 3 services with over 2500 in attendance. The pastor here, Rusty Nelson is a SE Graduate. He knows that God called him to Huntsville. He did not want to take over some one else’s work. He came here with a purpose and has planted this church as a post on the wall here in Huntsville. I am sorry to say that the A/G churches here have not been very cooperative. Sadly, to some we are maverick rivals.
I know of other states where young pastors desired to start a work under our flag and were stopped by over zealous pastors/districts. Now those new works are going gang busters and are not A/G. Have we allowed EXCLUSION to be added to the list of A/G methods of church growth? We cannot promote existing A/G churches by promoting territorial rights. (Other churches are not our competitors - the beer joint down the street is our competitor!)
This question may not be important from the stand point of some of you to regain those young pastors once lost. Me, I still pray for that to happen. But it is important to understand what is happening to our young pastors. As they leave our Bible Colleges, how can we assure that they continue to share our Pentecostal/Full Gospel message? Should Jesus tarry, will there be an Assemblies of God movement?
I believe that the answer is YES! But it will not look like our current design. Some have written about the Australian A/G. They have full time pastors who serve as leaders – something that we may need to consider.
Here’s another idea that may make some very nervous. Could our districts be better served to elect a Superintendent and then allow him to choose his own team? There is not one pastor among us, who wants his board to bring in and hire his associates. I wonder what would happen, if we had real district teams. Would we be better at serving the churches in our states? Would an effective district team be able to encourage and strengthen pastors, young and old alike? Would that draw in new pastors? Would they then see and understand that the district was functioning to support their effectiveness?
Here is one last most important question:
How do we connect the district to the national level without making the districts feel stymied? (For this Fellowship to go forward, I believe that we must find better ways to connect HQ to District to Church to Pew.)
Tom Bougher
The Rock FWC - HSV Al
LIFE Group & Adult Discipleship Pastor
There are plenty of leaders within the A/G who have come in from other denominations. For example, look at the superintendent of the Peninsular Florida District. He came in from another denomination to a church in Florida, and then on to the district office. We need to look at those who are transferring in as well as those leaving.
Could our districts be better served to elect a Superintendent and then allow him to choose his own team?
This very thing was proposed, and shot down at our last district council (Indiana). It makes complete sense to allow the District Superintendent to do so.
I am not sure of where you are getting your information from but the superintendent of the PenFL district, Terry Raburn, grew up in this district, his parents pastor in this district, he went to Southeastern and has always been A/G...not sure where you got this info that he was from another denomination or pastored in one. He's basically one of Pen-FL district's "home boys".
Excellent idea to let the District Supt select his own team. How about the General Supt as well?
To modify my comment about PenFL, I got it wrong. It wasn't the superintendent of the district, but the president of Southeastern.
To Jeff - Why not allow the General Superintendant to pick his own team? I think that is a wonderful idea. I don't really think that the majority of voters at General Council knew who Doug Clay is, or what he has done, or how effective he would have been in a General Council position. If the General Supt had the power to choose his own team, he could go after the Doug Clay types and surround himself with new thinkers and world changers. This whole blog is about doing just that. Send in the Clays!
Tom Bougher
Huntsville, Al.
My comment comes as an outside insider (or an inside outsider?) My grandfather was an AG pastor, my father was an AG pastor, I was an AG pastor. I attended CBC and graduated from SAGU (though I'm sure they would deny it) I currently serve as Executive Pastor at Seacoast Church in Charleston, SC alongside my brother Greg who was mentioned in the original post.
I have great admiration for the work the A/G has done and continues to do. I could discuss my decision to leave the A/G, but that was not the question posed in this post. Tory asked three questions, I'll give my best shot at answering them.
1. What can the A/G do to be more attractive to you?
I agree with Anonymous (he seems to be popular on this blog) who felt that trying to attract those who've left to return is a bad idea. At Seacoast we have no incentive to formally join the A/G and the A/G really doesn't need churches like us. We'd be like the ugly boyfriend that your cousin brings to the family reunion; you're nice to him because you have to be, but you wish he'd pick his scabs somewhere else.
We would, however, love to explore how we could continue to partner with A/G churches to expand the kingdom. We are currently partnering with a small A/G church in our community to do a Dreamcenter together. I think there is a of synergy in a looser relationship.
2. How can we help facilitate you?
I'm not sure exactly what this means. If the A/G would like to donate facilities they are currently underutilyzing so that we could plant more churches or open more campuses that would be cool, but I doubt that's what Tory had in mind. As I said previously I think there could be some cool partnership opportunities.
3. What do you see that needs to change and why?
I do not want to toss grenades over the fence as an unwanted outsider, but I would love the opportunity to have meaningful dialog with people who could make a difference. I think the A/G could be an even bigger force in the Kingdom than they are now. I know I can speak for myself and my brother Greg and probably many other former A/G pastors who do not have axe to grind, we would be honored to be involved in a process to revitalize the A/G, all you have to do is ask.
Glad to see someone get back to the questions at hand. We wast a lot of time saying who should or shouldn't talk about what...
Anyone teaching on strategic planning is going to tell you to talk to ALL of your constituents - so both the non-christian, the neighboring christian and the church insider should be talked to about perception and reality of our denomination and churches.
I am still...with the AG. But I have often thought of leaving. I know there are many of you out there like me.Why? As Paul Stewarts posts on the discipleship issue mention, there has always been such an emphasis on conformity to outer actions that to me have not guaranteed any inner quality of spiritual life. In addition an overemphasis on tongues. For something dealt with so little in the Bible comparatively, I have no idea why we have spent so much time on it, or why we even want to be "distinct". Coming out and being separate from the world is much different than having a "distinctive" from our brothers and sisters in Christ. I just don't get it. (being very honest here.)
2nd, there is a big disconnect (don't know what the answer is) between the district and the minister and between the district and the AGHQ. My district sup is great, and so is the district. But I am not in any real relationship with anyone in spiritual leadership over me to let them know my struggles, my issues, my challenges because then I might lose my job. How can we develop a fellowship that allows for wounded healers?
Tithing to the district. I just don't think it is Biblical. Yet nothing would make me lose my credentials sooner (to not pay).
If all of the 16 fundamentals are important, why are we only asked a more specific question on the renewal form about the "initial physical evidence?"
Those are a few things I can think of today.
Anyone else feel this way?
What it really comes down to is not feeling o.k. to be my real self while wearing the AG name - but MOSTLY I believe everything the same, and agree with what they are doing. I like being part of a group and think it is good and healthy...and any time I talk about the frustrations people encourage me not to leave but to stay and be part of the change. Some would tell me if I don't agree with the beliefs to leave...but when the differences are so small, why would I leave? Why not help to bring balance and perspective if possible? I just want to know the Bible and follow it and help others do that...
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