FTFA:Duluth city administrators are considering charging property owners and drivers fees for police and fire responses.

Isn't that what Taxes are for?

They already do charge for ambulance rides.

Problem is, if they're charging for the service, they are effectively maintaining a monopoly. There should be some other competitor police or firemen with which residents would be able to shop to try and get the best deal for emergency services.

Come to think of it, this poor guy might finally be in luck.

FTA:
He says the plan is modeled on a similar ordinance in Burnsville.

Well I think we know how it earned THAT name.

I'd do it. I want to have people pay for my police and fire responses.

Welcome to America, we can put a price tag on anything. F*ck you.

As long as they don't pay taxes, sure.

and the police will charge $1000.00 a night.

Lucidz: FTA:
He says the plan is modeled on a similar ordinance in Burnsville.

Well I think we know how it earned THAT name.

I LOL'd.

Yeah, I totally think we should fall back to the 1860's where local gangs controlled the fire department and let buildings burn while payment was agreed upon.

Oh, and the pillaging. Can't forget the pillaging.

"Papas says the fees could bring in an extra $100,000 per year for the city facing a $4.5 million deficit."

The whole motivation in a nutshell. And if they are gonna charge a fee, when someone calls them the response of the police and firemen better be measurable in nanoseconds. Otherwise a refund is due when a house burns down, or a crime is not stopped.

If the neighbor calls the FD because your garage is on fire and you have it put out before the FD arrives, who pays?

He says the plan is modeled on a similar ordinance in Burnsville.

Yes, let's follow the example of the Burnsville Fire Department...

Lucidz: FTA:
He says the plan is modeled on a similar ordinance in Burnsville.

Well I think we know how it earned THAT name.

Is that bordering Rapetown?

Papas says the fees could bring in an extra $100,000 per year for the city facing a $4.5 million deficit.

A drop in the bucket.

How about not using taxpayer money to pay 10 idiots to take three days to sort of fix a single pothole?

This may be the worst idea ever.

I really don't understand how cities go bankrupt, wouldn't they just see this coming and raise taxes?

I mean I pay a shiat load of taxes as it is already, where the fark is all that money going?

Papas says the fees could bring in an extra $100,000 per year for the city facing a $4.5 million deficit.

Duluth Minn Total population: 86810.

Let's say 50,000 pay taxes. $2 a person or approx .005 cents a day. Big Deal.

My father-in-law was recently air lifted from one hospital to another in Virginia. He loved looking out the window. It cost him $50,000. I told him next time he wants a sight seeing tour we'll pay for a tour helicopter.

zymosan: This may be the worst idea ever.

I really don't understand how cities go bankrupt, wouldn't they just see this coming and raise taxes?

I mean I pay a shiat load of taxes as it is already, where the fark is all that money going?

Ashley Dupre.

Duluth city administrators are considering charging property owners and drivers fees for police and fire responses.

Can the residents withhold payment or even sue for poor and/or shoddy workmanship? Can they deduct these fees from their property tax bill? Can they choose to undertake police "services" as a do it yourself project? What happens if a renter or out of town visitor decides to just refuse to pay?

SpinStopper: A drop in the bucket.

How about not using taxpayer money to pay 10 idiots to take three days to sort of fix a single pothole?

I'd be willing to bet it would save the taxpayers even more to not pay seven idiot city council members to sit around coming up with ideas like charging for basic emergency services.

The old fire department unions that used to argue over the price of their services while the "customer's" house burned also used to go around making business owners pay them weekly fees. And if they didn't pay the fees, it was amazing how often there would be a "spontaneous" fire in a building owned by someone who didn't pay those fees.

So, when do we start charging prisoners and their families for their 'rooms'?

drevil877: Lucidz: FTA:
He says the plan is modeled on a similar ordinance in Burnsville.

Well I think we know how it earned THAT name.

Is that bordering Rapetown?

No. But it should be renamed to Burnsdown.

Eddie_Dean_NY: I'd be willing to bet it would save the taxpayers even more to not pay seven idiot city council members to sit around coming up with ideas like charging for basic emergency services.

The old fire department unions that used to argue over the price of their services while the "customer's" house burned also used to go around making business owners pay them weekly fees. And if they didn't pay the fees, it was amazing how often there would be a "spontaneous" fire in a building owned by someone who didn't pay those fees.

I'm ashamed to be human.

Most of the time a fire department service charge will be covered under homeowners insurance. If they come for a car fire, your policy will generally pay "reasonable expenses to prevent further damage to covered property".

This just means that people living in these areas will pay more for insurance.

Burnsville: When living north of the river is just too scary.

ToxicMunkee: Yeah, I totally think we should fall back to the 1860's where local gangs controlled the fire department and let buildings burn while payment was agreed upon.

Oh, and the pillaging. Can't forget the pillaging.

Did you just pull that straight from Gangs of New York? Is that where kids get their history these days?

The Angry Hand of God: Papas says the fees could bring in an extra $100,000 per year for the city facing a $4.5 million deficit.

Duluth Minn Total population: 86810.

Let's say 50,000 pay taxes. $2 a person or approx .005 cents a day. Big Deal.

Ever hear of the phrase, "nickel and diming someone to death"? The government certainly has.

That shiat adds up, dummy.

molineskytown: Problem is, if they're charging for the service, they are effectively maintaining a monopoly. There should be some other competitor police or firemen with which residents would be able to shop to try and get the best deal for emergency services.

From The Onion: Libertarian Reluctantly Calls Fire Department

If people don't pay for "accident investigation" can their wrecked car just be pushed off the road until rush hour is over?

Wasn't the idea of a free fire department to prevent things getting out of hand Chicago fire style?

daffy: My father-in-law was recently air lifted from one hospital to another in Virginia. He loved looking out the window. It cost him $50,000. I told him next time he wants a sight seeing tour we'll pay for a tour helicopter.

Do they tell you that before they arrange the lift? Because, you know, my life would not be worth it if I had to spend the rest of it in that much debt. I'd just take my chances at the one hospital.

SpinStopper: I'm ashamed to be human.

At different points in history, some humans come up with the bright idea of actually treating each nicely, with respect, and individual rights, and the possibility of not acting like a bunch of poo-flinging apes. They make laws to protect everyone from crap like that, or tell their friends to go out and do good by others.

We usually kill these people.

Smarshmallow: ToxicMunkee: Yeah, I totally think we should fall back to the 1860's where local gangs controlled the fire department and let buildings burn while payment was agreed upon.

Oh, and the pillaging. Can't forget the pillaging.

Did you just pull that straight from Gangs of New York? Is that where kids get their history these days?

I actually meshed Gangs of New York, and a book my husband read about the realities of the period. It was longer, but even I bored myself so I cut it way down.

See..now I'm boring myself again.

Years ago the city of Boston tried to charge extra tax for a big building claiming it was for extra fire protection expenses. The courts shut that down saying fire protection is a public good to be funded out of general revenue. There are three types of revenue the government here is allowed to collect using its power as a government: taxes, user fees, and fines. Taxes are uniform. User fees are optional. Fire protection in Boston is not optional therefore it can not be funded out of user fees.

ZAZ: Years ago the city of Boston tried to charge extra tax for a big building claiming it was for extra fire protection expenses. The courts shut that down saying fire protection is a public good to be funded out of general revenue. There are three types of revenue the government here is allowed to collect using its power as a government: taxes, user fees, and fines. Taxes are uniform. User fees are optional. Fire protection in Boston is not optional therefore it can not be funded out of user fees.

What building was it? I'm curious, because we're moving into a new research building, and they're extremely restrictive about the amount of flammables we can have on the higher floors. I'm wondering if this is a response to that.

Smarshmallow

Emerson College v. City of Boston

Smarshmallow: ToxicMunkee: Yeah, I totally think we should fall back to the 1860's where local gangs controlled the fire department and let buildings burn while payment was agreed upon.

Oh, and the pillaging. Can't forget the pillaging.

Did you just pull that straight from Gangs of New York? Is that where kids get their history these days?

Are you saying that just because the concept of competing fire departments was in Gangs of New York it didn't happen?

Link

So who would they charge for a call to an abandoned property? If the property was owned, but the owner out of town, would the owner be responsible for the charge on a call for help he/she didn't make? What if the owner doesn't want the police called, but a neighbor calls? Or a non-resident at the property calls? Or a minor resident at the property calls.

I can just see someone say" I didn't call for help. I decided I would rather see my house burn down that to pay the fee. If Mrs. Kravitz didn't want to see my house burn down, she should pay the fee!"

Or we'll see the inevitable theft/homeinvasion where they were already robbed and now have to pay a fee to prove they were robbed. And let's say they know who did it, they will have to pay to prove they were robbed and to be an informant. I thought the cops were looking into ways of stopping crime by making it not so bad to be a narc.

i4adodge: Most of the time a fire department service charge will be covered under homeowners insurance. If they come for a car fire, your policy will generally pay "reasonable expenses to prevent further damage to covered property".

This just means that people living in these areas will pay more for insurance.

That's what the article didn't mention- The HOMEOWNER is NOT billed- their INSURANCE is. This has been going on for a few years. Ambulance companies have the ability to "Balance-bill" -If the patient's insurance doesn't pay, they can bill the patient. Police and fire are not legally allowed to balance-bill. If the insurance doesn't pay, too bad, sorry, thanks for the free service. It is up to the municipal gov't to pass an ordinance allowing the police and fire co. to bill the insurance company, which is what this article fails to explain.
A new fire engine (A BASIC one, not even a fancy one) costs around $200,000.00. They go up from there. We bought one in 1999, and the few add-ons we made (Custom cab instead of dump-truck-type commercial cab) meant it cost $238,000.00. Thanks to some pointless changes in NFPA certifications, a new Breathing Apparatus costs AT LEAST $5800.00. Gloves? $30-60/pr. Boots? $135-250. Everything costs more.
The other problem- People aren't volunteering any more. In 1982, our department had a maximum 35-member roster, with a 2-year waiting list. We now have 12 members to do the same work, with 4 times the amount of required training.
If you don't like having to pay an extra few bucks a year for your homeowners insurance, get off your fat, sarcastic, criticizing rear and volunteer. Otherwise, shut up. You don't even have to say "Thanks". Just keep your grumbling to yourself when your neighbor has to leave his child's birthday party to respond to a vehicle accident, or has to get up at 3AM and put out a fire, then be at work at 8, because they DON'T GET PAID!

If someone tries to put a fire out themselves, and it causes a loss of life and property, would the city be liable for criminal negligence?

The Angry Hand of God: Papas says the fees could bring in an extra $100,000 per year for the city facing a $4.5 million deficit.

Duluth Minn Total population: 86810.

Let's say 50,000 pay taxes. $2 a person or approx .005 cents a day. Big Deal.

Not to get too deep into Minnesota politics, but it's due to the fact that cities are getting less and less financing in local government aid from the state. Hence, they've had to come up with hairbrained schemes like this to balance their budgets.

Since the early 2000s, when financing schemes for many local services were changed, many municipalities have been increasingly feeling the crunch. They've been asked to take up the slack once provided by state aid, but have not been able to raise taxes to pay for services citizens demand and expect from the local government.

Sadly, this will become more common, as taxpayers continue demanding that the government provide more services while not giving them the ability to raise funds through increased taxes and bonding.

// unfunded mandates FTL

Rev. Skarekroe: Are you saying that just because the concept of competing fire departments was in Gangs of New York it didn't happen?

No, but her description pretty much exactly matched that of a scene from the movie.

So the US accepts socialized firefighting - but not socialized medicine?

Hal Jalykakik: Since the early 2000s, when financing schemes for many local services were changed, many municipalities have been increasingly feeling the crunch. They've been asked to take up the slack once provided by state aid, but have not been able to raise taxes to pay for services citizens demand and expect from the local government.

It's part of the republican "local government" plan. This way, rich towns get to keep more of their tax dollars.

Hal Jalykakik: The Angry Hand of God: Papas says the fees could bring in an extra $100,000 per year for the city facing a $4.5 million deficit.

Duluth Minn Total population: 86810.

Let's say 50,000 pay taxes. $2 a person or approx .005 cents a day. Big Deal.

Not to get too deep into Minnesota politics, but it's due to the fact that cities are getting less and less financing in local government aid from the state. Hence, they've had to come up with hairbrained schemes like this to balance their budgets.

Since the early 2000s, when financing schemes for many local services were changed, many municipalities have been increasingly feeling the crunch. They've been asked to take up the slack once provided by state aid, but have not been able to raise taxes to pay for services citizens demand and expect from the local government.

Sadly, this will become more common, as taxpayers continue demanding that the government provide more services while not giving them the ability to raise funds through increased taxes and bonding.

// unfunded mandates FTL

The point that I was trying to make, which I was unclear about, is that there is still 4.4 million dollars needed to offset this defecit. It is going to come out of the taxpayers pockets no matter how you cut it. I think it is a little ridiculous when the government reassociates this need to neutralize the defecit, by making up "projects" like this.

FTFA: City spokesman Jeff Papas

Mmmmm. Potatoes!

Lucidz: FTA:
He says the plan is modeled on a similar ordinance in Burnsville.

Well I think we know how it earned THAT name.

drevil877: Is that bordering Rapetown?

Over there by Pillagetown. They're all in Vikingraid County.

FTA: "He says the plan is modeled on a similar ordinance in Burnsville."

Am I the only one who read that as "Bumsville"?

come to Tallahassee Florida, we get hit with a fee for fire protection every month, its tacked on to your utility bill.

But, there is no state tax in Florida, and I'd rather pay 84 bucks a year to the fire department, than give 84 dollars in taxes, where 99% of it is just going into some stupid earmark.

Fire protection should be like healthcare, they'll put out the fire, but you better have insurance, or expect a bill.

wingnut396: So, when do we start charging prisoners and their families for their 'rooms'? Most prisons make prisoners do work like cook and clean, and do laundry, so they do sort of pay for thier room

Not to necessarily defend this silly scheme, but maybe they could just charge for nuisance calls? Like from those jackasses who called 911 >100 times a month just for entertainment? First fake call for free, after that, it's at least $5. That way no one who called for a legitimate reason would get charged extra, but they'd have an excuse to throw people in jail for prank calling the fire department if they didn't pay the fine. Everyone wins.

zymosan: This may be the worst idea ever.

I really don't understand how cities go bankrupt, wouldn't they just see this coming and raise taxes?

I mean I pay a shiat load of taxes as it is already, where the fark is all that money going?

Well, in my city (suburb with little tax base), it's because the city workers have a defined benefit plan and pay absolutely nothing for healthcare. Everybody else had to give up the Golden Parachute a long time ago. Government workers still get their COLA raises, and everytime there's a hiccup in the stock market, they want a millage to offset their pension losses.

And then there's how cities have lost so much federal funds, but that's a different rant.

Ever notice that governments always want to charge extra for the things that they're supposed to be providing as the basic package of services like public safety or sanitation? That's because they know they'll never get the public behind raising taxes to have a Russian Arts Festival or to fund the position of 3rd Assistant Deputy Commissioner for Manhole Covers. In my town the City Council keeps trying to find a way to charge for trash pickup. Unfortunately for them, they'd have to amend to city charter to make that happen, and that would take approval of the voters.

Monkeytoes: but not socialized medicine

There's more private money to be made off of medicine.. If they could work an angle to make more money off of fire fighting, there'd be a big push to privatize it.

wingnut396: So, when do we start charging prisoners and their families for their 'rooms'?

Many already do.

Maybe if we had any speeding tickets written in this city we wouldn't be so in debt. Driving 15 mph over the limit is the norm; I get honked at when I only go 10 mph over.
Also i love Don Ness, but charging someone money after a terrible accident has happen is not a good idea, charge the speeders.

Someone call me when they start installing AA placements on top of Nike headquarters.

jjorsett: Ever notice that governments always want to charge extra for the things that they're supposed to be providing as the basic package of services like public safety or sanitation? That's because they know they'll never get the public behind raising taxes to have a Russian Arts Festival or to fund the position of 3rd Assistant Deputy Commissioner for Manhole Covers. In my town the City Council keeps trying to find a way to charge for trash pickup. Unfortunately for them, they'd have to amend to city charter to make that happen, and that would take approval of the voters.

Quimby: Are those morons getting dumber or just louder?
Assistant: [checks his clipboard] Dumber, sir.
-- Dumb and dumber, "Much Apu About Nothing"

"They want the bear patrol but they won't pay taxes for it."

no offence americans, but i will laugh my ass off if i read that this proposal ends up going through. just another example of how you guys need to band together more against your own government. its there for you, not the other way around. viva la revolution!

SpinStopper: A drop in the bucket.

How about not using taxpayer money to pay 10 idiots to take three days to sort of fix a single pothole?


They fix the potholes? When did that start?

Snark aside:

Hal Jalykakik
Not to get too deep into Minnesota politics, but it's due to the fact that cities are getting less and less financing in local government aid from the state. Hence, they've had to come up with hairbrained schemes like this to balance their budgets.

Rochester has been increasing the property tax every year. Business owners rebelled one year when they were to shoulder a huge increase and it got shifted to residential owners. But everyone's is going up. The school district managed to pass an operating levy on the property owners too. Fortunately Rochester is still growing (mostly from annexation) so the tax base is increasing as well.

What does a person's family have to do with what they did? You may as well charge some random stranger if you're gonna charge family.

I keep telling my wife i'm going to buy a gun.
Things like this are getting out of hand.

Last week I saw a motorcyclist get creamed on the freeway - people stopped and ran for help to the nearby Truck Scales while I immediatley grabbed the cell and called 911.

I was on hold for over 10 minutes before I gave up.
Its rediculous when you can run for help faster than calling for it.

Now you add this in... sheesh.

If somebody breaks into our home, I'm just gonna shoot the bastard. Forget calling 911, waiting on hold while all sorts of bad things happen, then being charged for the priveledge of a response. Screw that. Shoot first, call the morgue instead of the cops, let the morgue call the cops and let THEM pay the fine.

/yeah, we'll see how well this works.
//but honestly, what else are we supposed to do?

Hal Jalykakik
Not to get too deep into Minnesota politics, but it's due to the fact that cities are getting less and less financing in local government aid from the state. Hence, they've had to come up with hairbrained schemes like this to balance their budgets.

Rochester has been increasing the property tax every year. Business owners rebelled one year when they were to shoulder a huge increase and it got shifted to residential owners. But everyone's is going up. The school district managed to pass an operating levy on the property owners too. Fortunately Rochester is still growing (mostly from annexation) so the tax base is increasing as well.

From what I understand, cities around that area, Burnsville, Eagan, etc. are pretty stagnant in terms of growth right now and some city leaders have had all these brilliant ideas to "revitalize" their towns. They spent a pantload trying to rebuild old areas and restore parts of town when aesthetically it's neccessary but structurally not, and now it's coming back to bite them in the arse.

/thank Jebus I have no more family there
//dunno if Hastings is much better in reality though

If the fire is investigated and the homeowner is found to be at fault then I have no problem with them being charged something.

NYZooMan: As long as they don't pay taxes, sure.

why would you believe it should be 100% one way or the other?

lajimi: Duluth city administrators are considering charging property owners and drivers fees for police and fire responses.

Can the residents withhold payment or even sue for poor and/or shoddy workmanship? Can they deduct these fees from their property tax bill? Can they choose to undertake police "services" as a do it yourself project? What happens if a renter or out of town visitor decides to just refuse to pay?

In most cases, the bill would be sold to a collections agency. A kot of cities, though, will automatically write off any discepency between the bill and what meidcare or insurance will pay ( for ambulance transports).

And fire departments are involved in lawsuits all the time.

Let me go ahead and say that I am all for the fine of having non-residents pay the fine of having police investigate traffic accidents. 99% of the time, this is a non-criminal report that we are having to write when 1) our primary responsibility is to investigate and write reports on CRIMINAL activities and 2) takes away from the time we can spend investigating or preventing criminal activities.

Let me also say that police departments charge for services already. When we respond and there is a false burglar alarm or a false hold-up/panic alarm, we charge the resident or the business. This has been in place for years in many different police departments across the country.

However, I do not agree that fire-departments should charge for putting out fires and extracting individuals from a wrecked vehicle. Their primary job description is to put out fires and save people, whereas police officer's primary job description is to investigate, prevent, and attempt to prosecute criminal activity. Traffic accidents are (the majority of the time) not criminal.

And where is this "slippery slope" type of argument coming from where people are now saying the police are going to charge you for responding to your house for a burglar or something? Nowhere in the article has anybody said anything like this. And if someone were to propose a fee for that, I would completely disagree because that is our job. To investigate, prevent, and prosecute criminal activity.

p.s. yes i am a police officer

Headline describes libertarian paradise. Fee for service.

truamw315: And where is this "slippery slope" type of argument coming from where people are now saying the police are going to charge you for responding to your house for a burglar or something?

FTA:
Duluth city administrators are considering charging property owners and drivers fees for police and fire responses.

Thats all it really says about charging for police responses, so we're extrapolating.
Yeah, that article is pretty lacking on details.
Besides, this is indeed a slippery slope. Once they start charging for any types of responses, its not far off before other types are added in, then more, then more.
Now, FALSE claims requiring a response - absolutely, charge the hell out of em.
Its the fees for legitimate responses that scare the hell out of me.

/assuming 911 ever picks up
//still really pissed about that

fireflyfarm:
That's what the article didn't mention- The HOMEOWNER is NOT billed- their INSURANCE is. This has been going on for a few years. Ambulance companies have the ability to "Balance-bill" -If the patient's insurance doesn't pay, they can bill the patient. Police and fire are not legally allowed to balance-bill. If the insurance doesn't pay, too bad, sorry, thanks for the free service. It is up to the municipal gov't to pass an ordinance allowing the police and fire co. to bill the insurance company, which is what this article fails to explain.
A new fire engine (A BASIC one, not even a fancy one) costs around $200,000.00. They go up from there. We bought one in 1999, and the few add-ons we made (Custom cab instead of dump-truck-type commercial cab) meant it cost $238,000.00. Thanks to some pointless changes in NFPA certifications, a new Breathing Apparatus costs AT LEAST $5800.00. Gloves? $30-60/pr. Boots? $135-250. Everything costs more.
The other problem- People aren't volunteering any more. In 1982, our department had a maximum 35-member roster, with a 2-year waiting list. We now have 12 members to do the same work, with 4 times the amount of required training.
If you don't like having to pay an extra few bucks a year for your homeowners insurance, get off your fat, sarcastic, criticizing rear and volunteer. Otherwise, shut up. You don't even have to say "Thanks". Just keep your grumbling to yourself when your neighbor has to leave his child's birthday party to respond to a vehicle accident, or has to get up at 3AM and put out a fire, then be at work at 8, because they DON'T GET PAID!

If I may break into your somewhat justifiable angry tirade for a moment? People already ARE paying for your equipment in the form of taxes. If taxes doesn't cover the expenses, then that's between your organization and the elected officials that set the budget.

Charging people for the pleasure of your response is against every code that firefighters or police officers live by. Moreoever, what happens to those poor types who don't have homeowners insurance or similar? Are they not worth helping?

It will probably be a soft bill, meaning it goes to insurance and they pay it.

//I work for a fire department so......

pleaseDemeter: Headline describes libertarian paradise. Fee for service.

I remember having this discussion with a very scary libertarian who was talking about this ideal system with privatized fire departments where a private fire department is set up to service a select neighbourhood and that neighbourhood only. Everyone in the neighbourhood pays $500 a year for the service and the fire department will respond if there's a fire or other related emergency. If you didn't pay your service the fire department will still respond to your emergency but charge you $600 afterwards.

He got very upset when I pointed out that nobody would pay the $500 service fee because most people will never need the service so they'd rather take their chances and pay the extra $100. Plus currently I already pay less than $5 of my property tax a year for the local fire department so the privatized fire department would actually be more expensive and less efficient.

He just spouted off about communism and police state and jews.

When my neighbor's house catches on fire I really hope they pay their fire bill before it gets my house too.

zymosan: This may be the worst idea ever.

I really don't understand how cities go bankrupt, wouldn't they just see this coming and raise taxes?

I mean I pay a shiat load of taxes as it is already, where the fark is all that money going?

Pork?

kazanshin no offence americans, but i will laugh my ass off if i read that this proposal ends up going through. just another example of how you guys need to band together more against your own government. its there for you, not the other way around. viva la revolution!

Kent. State.

When Americans learned their government would murder its own citizens for simply expressing free speech and a desire for change.

What a brilliant idea! Who better to hit with fees than a family that has just lost everything in a fire?

The State of New Jersey is beginning to bill municipalities for State police services.

Lets organize an illegal alien fire dept in each city to put out the fires Americans won't.

sickicarus: I keep telling my wife i'm going to buy a gun.
Things like this are getting out of hand.

Last week I saw a motorcyclist get creamed on the freeway - people stopped and ran for help to the nearby Truck Scales while I immediatley grabbed the cell and called 911.

I was on hold for over 10 minutes before I gave up.
Its rediculous when you can run for help faster than calling for it.

Now you add this in... sheesh.

What you did not notice were the other 500 people calling about the same accident at the same time. Calls are answered in the order received in a 911 center, which, depending on where you are, can be staffed by one person to twenty people. Due to policies, most still have to ask several questions to each and every caller even if there are other calls about the incident.

In otherwords, it's cute how you biatch about people trying to help. DIAF, moron.

Ghastly: pleaseDemeter: Headline describes libertarian paradise. Fee for service.

I remember having this discussion with a very scary libertarian who was talking about this ideal system with privatized fire departments where a private fire department is set up to service a select neighbourhood and that neighbourhood only. Everyone in the neighbourhood pays $500 a year for the service and the fire department will respond if there's a fire or other related emergency. If you didn't pay your service the fire department will still respond to your emergency but charge you $600 afterwards.

He got very upset when I pointed out that nobody would pay the $500 service fee because most people will never need the service so they'd rather take their chances and pay the extra $100. Plus currently I already pay less than $5 of my property tax a year for the local fire department so the privatized fire department would actually be more expensive and less efficient.

He just spouted off about communism and police state and jews.i>

That gave me a chuckle. Ah, dontcha just love the ones that can't carry and argument without blaming a) liberals; b) welfare mothers; or c) [insert minority of choice].

Still, I'd rather have your tax bill. We pay about $90 a year just for PD / FD pension costs (same cost for the rest of the city employees), and that doesn't include operating expenses. And ambulances have been privatized for probably 20 years or more here, so we've paying for the ride for a long time. (I conveniently live within walking distance of a world class hospital and can usually drive myself or loved ones if necessary)

My water bill in and of itself is only about $40 every three months. But then they tack on sewage, storm runoff, refuse collection, water delivery charges and billing fees. So my 'water' bill is actually $140 every three months. So I do not water my lawn or plant flowers in the summer. Thank God, we've had a lot of rain this year.

But yeah. I thought it was George Bush's fault. I guess I should have been blaming the Jews.

truamw315: Let me go ahead and say that I am all for the fine of having non-residents pay the fine of having police investigate traffic accidents. 99% of the time, this is a non-criminal report that we are having to write when 1) our primary responsibility is to investigate and write reports on CRIMINAL activities and 2) takes away from the time we can spend investigating or preventing criminal activities.

Let me also say that police departments charge for services already. When we respond and there is a false burglar alarm or a false hold-up/panic alarm, we charge the resident or the business. This has been in place for years in many different police departments across the country.

However, I do not agree that fire-departments should charge for putting out fires and extracting individuals from a wrecked vehicle. Their primary job description is to put out fires and save people, whereas police officer's primary job description is to investigate, prevent, and attempt to prosecute criminal activity. Traffic accidents are (the majority of the time) not criminal.

And where is this "slippery slope" type of argument coming from where people are now saying the police are going to charge you for responding to your house for a burglar or something? Nowhere in the article has anybody said anything like this. And if someone were to propose a fee for that, I would completely disagree because that is our job. To investigate, prevent, and prosecute criminal activity.

p.s. yes i am a police officer

Pay off the cops and let the firemen have a bake sale? Typical.

The Angry Hand of God: zymosan: This may be the worst idea ever.

I really don't understand how cities go bankrupt, wouldn't they just see this coming and raise taxes?

I mean I pay a shiat load of taxes as it is already, where the fark is all that money going?

Ashley Dupre.

That many people need dental work?

ToxicMunkee - I actually meshed Gangs of New York, and a book my husband read about the realities of the period. It was longer, but even I bored myself so I cut it way down.

See..now I'm boring myself again.

"Paradise Alley?"

/great book
//nearly as good as "Dreamland"

'cuz you have a complete idiot for a governor. Seriously, he makes Jesse look excellent--- you didn't know how good you had it until a republican took office.

The Angry Hand of God: Hal Jalykakik: The Angry Hand of God: Papas says the fees could bring in an extra $100,000 per year for the city facing a $4.5 million deficit.

Duluth Minn Total population: 86810.

Let's say 50,000 pay taxes. $2 a person or approx .005 cents a day. Big Deal.

Not to get too deep into Minnesota politics, but it's due to the fact that cities are getting less and less financing in local government aid from the state. Hence, they've had to come up with hairbrained schemes like this to balance their budgets.

Since the early 2000s, when financing schemes for many local services were changed, many municipalities have been increasingly feeling the crunch. They've been asked to take up the slack once provided by state aid, but have not been able to raise taxes to pay for services citizens demand and expect from the local government.

Sadly, this will become more common, as taxpayers continue demanding that the government provide more services while not giving them the ability to raise funds through increased taxes and bonding.

// unfunded mandates FTL

The point that I was trying to make, which I was unclear about, is that there is still 4.4 million dollars needed to offset this defecit. It is going to come out of the taxpayers pockets no matter how you cut it. I think it is a little ridiculous when the government reassociates this need to neutralize the defecit, by making up "projects" like this.

1. This is what happens when the "local! local! local!" sheep get their way, where everything just HAS to be controlled down tho the friggin squares on each sidewalk by "the locals" without any outside influence.

2. You think this is bad? Just wait until the conservative neocon wetdream of privatization for everything kicks in... you'll have a chip planted under your skin (involuntarily) with your payment and insurance information. That way when the paramedics show up, they can read the chip even if you are unconscious and know whether or not you can pay... and whether they can treat you. No money? No insurance? You're f*cked.

Go ahead and charge the caller.

You know what will happen? The fire department fails to arrive on time and the house burns down

You know who will biatch? Not the caller but the insurance company that has to pay out

You know who will get sued? The fire department, the emergency call centre and the city

clever. now poor ppl will try to fight the fire on their own, smart move.

This would help pay for the thousands of bullshat false alarm calls they get every year.

A lot of departments are already charging to answer false alarm calls after you reach a certain number.

I'm for it.....

It does make me wonder:

1. If I accidentally set my house on fire, can I refuse the fire department's services on the basis that I don't want to pay the fee?
2. If I call the police because I think my next-door neighbors are having a fight and it turns out they're just having really great sex, do I have to pay?
3. If my neighbor accidentally sets his garage on fire and I put it out before they get there, can I charge the fire department?
4. Can I choose to outsource the investigation of a crime scene to CSI:Las Vegas if I pay their fees instead?
5. If I'm not satisfied with the services provided, can I have my fees reimbursed?
6. Can I refuse to pay the fee if I get into a car accident and the other guy wants the cops to write a report but I don't?
7. Do I get a better response the next time if I tip?
8. Do those who pay for the premium service get a better response time?
9. What if I live in an apartment and my landlord refuses to pay the fee?
10. If I see my neighbor choking on a hot dog, can I refuse to call 911 because I might have to pay the fees?

Or, you know, we could just, like, pay them with our taxes and that would probably make things easier.

I know Appleton, WI charges for responding to car fires, if the person is a non-resident. The fee is $500. Now I'm all for this if the person is not paying ANY property taxes in that area. Basically what I'm saying is that even if the person is a non-resident, but they own a business or other land in the city then they shouldn't have to pay this "fee"

If the Democrats get into power, this crazy system of socialized fire departments will just get worse. Vote Republicuhhh....

skinink: "Papas says the fees could bring in an extra $100,000 per year for the city facing a $4.5 million deficit."
The whole motivation in a nutshell. And if they are gonna charge a fee, when someone calls them the response of the police and firemen better be measurable in nanoseconds. Otherwise a refund is due when a house burns down, or a crime is not stopped.

Wow. Real big drop in the bucket there. Then they'll only be 4.4 million in the whole. It'll never pay off anyhow, because people would stop calling 911

BananaPhone05
7. Do I get a better response the next time if I tip?

This one got a giggle for some reason.

Malacon: FTFA:Duluth city administrators are considering charging property owners and drivers fees for police and fire responses.

Isn't that what Taxes are for?

Well you know free-marketeers, they say gubbermint is just getting in the way. I mean we used to be this way (private fire companies).

kc9fsh: I know Appleton, WI charges for responding to car fires, if the person is a non-resident. The fee is $500. Now I'm all for this if the person is not paying ANY property taxes in that area. Basically what I'm saying is that even if the person is a non-resident, but they own a business or other land in the city then they shouldn't have to pay this "fee"

Well they could just keep their car in repair and not have it start on fire in the first place.

/snarky

Bananaphone05: 1. If I accidentally set my house on fire, can I refuse the fire department's services on the basis that I don't want to pay the fee?
2. If I call the police because I think my next-door neighbors are having a fight and it turns out they're just having really great sex, do I have to pay?
3. If my neighbor accidentally sets his garage on fire and I put it out before they get there, can I charge the fire department?
4. Can I choose to outsource the investigation of a crime scene to CSI:Las Vegas if I pay their fees instead?
5. If I'm not satisfied with the services provided, can I have my fees reimbursed?
6. Can I refuse to pay the fee if I get into a car accident and the other guy wants the cops to write a report but I don't?
7. Do I get a better response the next time if I tip?
8. Do those who pay for the premium service get a better response time?
9. What if I live in an apartment and my landlord refuses to pay the fee?
10. If I see my neighbor choking on a hot dog, can I refuse to call 911 because I might have to pay the fees?

1) Yes but I'd change it to be like Japan where a person, that has a fire start on their property that spreads to another, is culpable criminally as well as civilly.

2) Be your acts legal or illegal, nosy neighbors are noxious. STFU and go back to reading Fark.

3) Not unless you've worked out a contract with them. Feel free to charge your neighbor, but a local mechanic can't charge VW for warranty work, unless he works for a VW authorized repair center.

4) Nope, jurisdictional limitations apply. Plus, you couldn't afford Grissom showing up to sneeze in your house anyway.

5) Well I suppose if they can start the fire again and let it finish the job.

6) Nope, dual contract of being on the road. Now you don't have to pay for your copy of the report.

7) Maybe, but if they think your an a$$ they probably take a few seconds longer and hope you die.

8) Of course! That's the free market at work! Poor people, well they're poor. Who gives a f**k about them anyway?

9) Tough luck, should've chosen a classier apartment. Of course if you're poor, who cares. You might have a civil case if you can prove the landlord said he did, and also prove he didn't send out an addendum later that said he didn't, but since he's a businessman you have to prove your case. None of this preponderance of the evidence bulls**t.

10) Yes. Of course, unless you're a moron, the Heimlich maneuver is pretty easy. Then again if you're looking in on your neighbor without permission it falls under that nosy neighbors thing again. STFU and go back to reading Fark.

Taxes are ebil.

moothemagiccow: Wow. Real big drop in the bucket there. Then they'll only be 4.4 million in the whole. It'll never pay off anyhow, because people would stop calling 911

Well if it goes straight to the department budgets, you'd better believe it's a big deal to them ;p

What you did not notice were the other 500 people calling about the same accident at the same time. Calls are answered in the order received in a 911 center, which, depending on where you are, can be staffed by one person to twenty people. Due to policies, most still have to ask several questions to each and every caller even if there are other calls about the incident.

In otherwords, it's cute how you biatch about people trying to help. DIAF, moron.

Well then, let's think your cunning plan all the way through...

Every single time I have ever called 911, be it to report an accident or a massively drunk driver, I have been on hold for no fewer than 5-7 minutes. This was just the most recent example, and the one where seconds literally counted.
I agree, the hold time was most likely due to other drivers also calling 911.
Was it 500? No - maybe 20, TOPS, assuming ever single driver with a view of the accident also had a cell phone. Lets say it was 10 for sake of argument.
Lets also say I was number 5 in the queue.
Actually, scratch both of those assumptions - they don't matter. If 911 is not staffed properly to handle a large influx of calls, then whats the point? All you're doing is training the population to not bother calling - somebody else is. Thats a GREAT philosophy to enforce to a populace - it brings us right back to vigilantism.

Lets also not mention the numerous studies and news reports describing how woefully understaffed 911 centers are, due to abysmal pay and high turnover.

But whatever. I just think its a crying shame that when seconds count, 911 will take minutes. Tax dollars hard at work.

Leoni, Michigan approves (new window)

I'm a 911 operator/emergency services dispatcher and a volunteer firefighter and have varying opinions on this.

The vast majority of 911 calls and fire/EMS responses are false alarms, nuisance calls or just complete nonsense. At some point, some type of fee structure makes sense. I understand the "that's what taxes are for" argument, but in many places taxes don't provide all the funding for a volunteer fire department or EMS rescue squad. Many of these agencies rely on donations from the public. At some point, the money coming in doesn't cover the expenses for the responses going out. While I understand that a larger municipality like Duluth with a paid FD and such may not rely on donations at all, but rather is funded completely by taxes, it isn't always realistic to just raise taxes to cover the increased cost of nonsense calls.

On the other hand, I can see a myriad of problems when there is a true emergency. Will there be a delay in calling the FD for a minor fire only to have things get out of control as a result? Will a neighbor or good Samaritan hesitate to call because they are confused as to who gets billed? What if you are having a barbecue and your neighbor or a passer-by sees smoke and calls the FD thinking there is a fire? Who pays then? And on and on.

Where I work and volunteer, I'd like to see a system where a determination is made on a per call basis. If the FD arrives and takes some action to rectify a situation and save lives and property, there is no charge. If they respond to a false alarm or other call at which they take no action, then a fee or fine should be assessed.

I also acknowledge that not every situation is easy and no system would be perfect.

Impressed

/so hotlinked, it's on fire

sickicarus: What you did not notice were the other 500 people calling about the same accident at the same time. Calls are answered in the order received in a 911 center, which, depending on where you are, can be staffed by one person to twenty people. Due to policies, most still have to ask several questions to each and every caller even if there are other calls about the incident.

In otherwords, it's cute how you biatch about people trying to help. DIAF, moron.

Well then, let's think your cunning plan all the way through...

Every single time I have ever called 911, be it to report an accident or a massively drunk driver, I have been on hold for no fewer than 5-7 minutes. This was just the most recent example, and the one where seconds literally counted.
I agree, the hold time was most likely due to other drivers also calling 911.
Was it 500? No - maybe 20, TOPS, assuming ever single driver with a view of the accident also had a cell phone. Lets say it was 10 for sake of argument.
Lets also say I was number 5 in the queue.
Actually, scratch both of those assumptions - they don't matter. If 911 is not staffed properly to handle a large influx of calls, then whats the point? All you're doing is training the population to not bother calling - somebody else is. Thats a GREAT philosophy to enforce to a populace - it brings us right back to vigilantism.

Lets also not mention the numerous studies and news reports describing how woefully understaffed 911 centers are, due to abysmal pay and high turnover.

But whatever. I just think its a crying shame that when seconds count, 911 will take minutes. Tax dollars hard at work.

You have me confused. You seemed originally against this plan,. but now you are saying that emergency services is understaffed, since they should always plan for maximum load (fairly difficult and expnsive). So, is this a good idea, as it will recover additional costs for emergency services, or not?

Also, I am not sure what city you are int, but 5 to 7 minutes every time you called seems like a lot. Did you actually check the time, or was that just subjective (in an emergemncy, minutes feel like hours).

MycroftHolmes: You have me confused. You seemed originally against this plan,. but now you are saying that emergency services is understaffed, since they should always plan for maximum load (fairly difficult and expnsive). So, is this a good idea, as it will recover additional costs for emergency services, or not?

Also, I am not sure what city you are int, but 5 to 7 minutes every time you called seems like a lot. Did you actually check the time, or was that just subjective (in an emergemncy, minutes feel like hours).

I think part of the confusion is we're talking about two different things, but that are along the same vein.

Firstly, what TFA refers to - charging fees for responses.
I think Scott77's post a couple up nailed it on the head. The majority of responses are nonsense - and it is these where a fee for the response is justified, and I agree with them. But not where there is a legitimate emergency. That's just a recipe for disaster. But like Scott77 also said, there's never going to be a perfect system - too many "What ifs."

Secondly, is 911 hold times.
I don't have any easy solutions - the ideal solution, to have max staffing at all times, I agree is cost-prohibitive.
HOWEVER, 911 call-centers MUST NOT be managed with the same mentality as, say, a tech-support call center - where you have your call trends, and staff for the average expected volume to be able to answer the calls in a given amount of minutes. In tech call centers, when an outage hits and the queue blows up, the worst-case scenario for not having enough staff to answer calls within the set goal is that a business cannot process credit cards, and dollars are lost.
Contrast that to 911, where the worst-case scenario is LIVES are lost if calls are not answered IMMEDIATELY. As such, they must be staffed to a high enough level that all calls can be answered immediately, barring catastrophic disaster.

Sadly, my personal experience with 911 hold times is not subjective - my cell phone has a call timer on it, and I always look at how long I was on hold (usually before I give up and drop off). And a 7-minute average is pretty much spot-on. Usually by that time the drunk driver has left the area, or I figure somebody else has reported the accident I just saw (and how cynical is that attitude?) I held for 10 mins when I saw the biker get creamed simply out of a sense of fraternity for the poor bastard, since I ride myself.
FYI, my area is East SF bay, to give you an idea.
Also, from my understanding, the abysmal 911 hold times are only applicable to cell-phone 911 centers, as they handle a much larger region. The call-centers that answer land-line 911 calls are typically local to the city where the call is placed from, and have better performance records. I could be wrong here, but I'm remembering news reports on the topic. Fortunately I have never (knock on wood) had to call 911 from a land-line to test this.
But my point for the long 911 hold times is that SOMETHING must be done - the current state of affairs would be laughable if it weren't so tragic.
Perhaps add a $1 surcharge to all cellular accounts to pay for proper 911 call center staffing levels? I don't know. But when seconds count, taking minutes is inexcusable.

lajimi:Pay off the cops and let the firemen have a bake sale? Typical.

Did I really say that? No, I didn't. I said public service entities should be allowed to charge people for false alarms and asking them to perform acts which are outside of their scope of service.

But maybe firemen should have a bake sale.

Seems illogical and contrary to the concept of government. Nobody but that county government is allowed to set up a police force or fire response, so that government is logically charged with providing these services completely equitably, and only paid for by whatever taxation required of the community at benefit.

Rev. Skarekroe: Smarshmallow: ToxicMunkee: Yeah, I totally think we should fall back to the 1860's where local gangs controlled the fire department and let buildings burn while payment was agreed upon.

Oh, and the pillaging. Can't forget the pillaging.

Did you just pull that straight from Gangs of New York? Is that where kids get their history these days?

Are you saying that just because the concept of competing fire departments was in Gangs of New York it didn't happen?

Link

Actually, it wasn't so much that they let the building burn down because they were "agreeing on a method of payment" ... It was more that Fire Departments were owned by insurance companies, just like buildings. So, a Fire Department that was owned by a rival insurance company would show up to the building first, and set up a sort of blockade around said building. Then, when the Fire Department showed up that actually WAS owned by the same insurance company that owned the building, the rival FD wouldn't let them get their job done.

/Firefighter
//Knows my history
///It has some ugly portions, just like everyone else's history.

Cue the Whaaaaaaaaaambulance.

/oh crap nm I can't cover it until the first of the month...

Monkeytoes: So the US accepts socialized firefighting - but not socialized medicine?

A lot of smaller towns have volunteer fire departments. Don't think too many would be keen on having the "volunteer doctor" remove that inflamed appendix.

Smarshmallow: Hal Jalykakik: Since the early 2000s, when financing schemes for many local services were changed, many municipalities have been increasingly feeling the crunch. They've been asked to take up the slack once provided by state aid, but have not been able to raise taxes to pay for services citizens demand and expect from the local government.

It's part of the republican "local government" plan. This way, rich towns get to keep more of their tax dollars.

Burnsville is an affluent suburb of St. Paul. It just happens to populated with affluent pyromaniacs and arsonists.

/Chortle

jjorsett: Ever notice that governments always want to charge extra for the things that they're supposed to be providing as the basic package of services like public safety or sanitation? That's because they know they'll never get the public behind raising taxes to have a Russian Arts Festival or to fund the position of 3rd Assistant Deputy Commissioner for Manhole Covers. In my town the City Council keeps trying to find a way to charge for trash pickup. Unfortunately for them, they'd have to amend to city charter to make that happen, and that would take approval of the voters.

Or hassling old geezers playing poker, prostitutes and their clients, stoners, etc.

mad_prophet_tx: Monkeytoes: So the US accepts socialized firefighting - but not socialized medicine?

A lot of smaller towns have volunteer fire departments. Don't think too many would be keen on having the "volunteer doctor" remove that inflamed appendix.

"A lot of smaller towns"? The last time I checked ... I believe the number was somewhere around 80% of the country was still protected by volunteer Fire Departments.