Denier? There really isn't anything to deny just an analysis of data that says "you're full of crap"...

By hansensdisease

And Leon is getting larger!

WE SHOULD'VE LISTENED!!!

/obligatory

I'm not a denier. I'm not!

"Although Mount Shasta's glaciers are growing, researchers say the 4.7 billion cubic feet of ice on its flanks could be gone by 2100."

I'll be dead by then. Enjoy cleaning my mess, grandkids.

The problem is the number of glaciers getting smaller outnumbers the growing glaciers buy a zillion to one. Give or take a few.

To me, global warming was disproved because it got cold last winter.

Oh god not THIS shiat again...

T-Luv:"Although Mount Shasta's glaciers are growing, researchers say the 4.7 billion cubic feet of ice on its flanks could be gone by 2100."

I'll be dead by then. Enjoy cleaning my mess, grandkids.

Me too. Seems a shame to let all that ice go to waste. Anyone got some whiskey?

Grandkids are on their own, gramps never did shiat for me.

The fastest receding of glaciers in known history happened between 1780 and 1880 in Alaska.

Something for your knowledge base there.

HansensDisease:By hansensdisease

really, cause i get rained on every couple of frigen days, and i'm in a red zone

but i don't know what the qualifiers for draught on

I always thought we were still in the tail end of an iceage.
Meaning that the climate we know isn't what the Earth normally is and what is happening now is just natural.

Not that I don't think measures should be taken to reduce pollutants in the air and soil.

Ooh, one mountain.

/Scuk it, science-people!

I guess I should halt work on the Titanic II at this point.

Bunnyhat:I always thought we were still in the tail end of an iceage.
Meaning that the climate we know isn't what the Earth normally is and what is happening now is just natural.

Not that I don't think measures should be taken to reduce pollutants in the air and soil.

This.

T-Luv:
"Although Mount Shasta's glaciers are growing, researchers say the 4.7 billion cubic feet of ice on its flanks could be gone by 2100."

I'll be dead by then. Enjoy cleaning my mess, grandkids.

THIS. Why should I care what happens after I'm dead? Either people will figure out how to fix the climate, or they won't. It won't matter at all in the big picture if I car pool and recycle, or if I drive my pickup truck and throw my trash in the ravine. Besides, it's not like the ecosystem won't outlast us, even if there are drastic changes there will still be other species alive, like beetles and mice and things like that. All this hippy self flagellation is just mystic earth worship mumbo jumbo, in my opinion. Get over yourselves, we can't blow up the planet, it will persist.

clifton:To me, global warming was disproved because it got cold last winter.

TO me it is real because it was warm yesterday

There was an interesting and trollerific op-ed in the Wall Street Journal last week called Global Warming as Mass Neurosis (new window). I tried to submit it, but the mods hate me.

Wait so I don't need Al Gore Carbon Credits, or I do?

///In other news: women get pregnant more often than men?
//wants me some jew-gold
/reverse slashies in honor of reverse global warming

Honestly, who really gives a shiat about the so-called "global warming?" What the fark do people really care about it? i.e. are they going to dramatically change their lives to "fight" the so-called "global warming"? i.e. give up your car, give up your A/C, give up flying, give up every civilized thing that makes us a 1st world nation?

I could care less about this so-called disaster and will continue to live my life as I please. And I strongly suspect 99.9% of the rest of the population will, too.

It's all a big scam to sell global-warming credits.

Bunnyhat:I always thought we were still in the tail end of an iceage.
Meaning that the climate we know isn't what the Earth normally is and what is happening now is just natural.

Not that I don't think measures should be taken to reduce pollutants in the air and soil.

Whats also interesting is the Renaissance period was much warmer than it is now, there are a lot of historic vineyards in Europe (well markers of vineyards) where none will grow nowadays because its too cold. This much warmer climate didn't create devistation, it actually is credited by many historians as being a major force in the Renaissance as food was more plentiful people could stop to think. OH the HUGE MANATEE! :)
//Yes we should try not to pollute, but I'm not giving Gore one cents for his credits..

I'm not saying I'm a denier, I'm not saying I'm NOT a denier. I'm saying that there isn't any debate about the topic, there's only a group of scientists who think another group of scientists are nuts, and a bunch of politicians who see an opportunity to confiscate private wealth to fight a boogeyman that may or may not exist.

I'm sorry if I think that smells. But it does.

of course the glacier is getting bigger, wasn't there a new ice age coming? because of global warming?

About to break my massive carbon footprint off in someones ass!

/need accuracy stats on NOAA's climate prediction center = wtf?
//just sayin

No Such Agency:Get over yourselves, we can't blow up the planet, it will persist.

This is my favorite denialist argument ever. "We can't possibly damage the Earth because I just said we can't possibly damage the Earth."

Bah...what happened to global cooling

As George Carlin (R.I.P) said: The planet itself is fine. It will be fine. It can survive on its own. It faced meteors and other cosmic phenomena in its history. It will bounce back from a little warming due to carbon dioxide...

However, the people on the planet are screwed.

Global warming alarmists are the hack psychologists of the 21st century.

Just more sure of themselves.

If the negative effects of unchecked emissions growth were constrained only to those or those nations who ignored and/or fought the science at every opportunity, it would be a little easier to accept. As it is, the willful ignorance and outright deceit that has stymied action on this will punish those who had no say.

And people wonder why the James Hansens of the world rail so hard against this.

it's El Nino
/which means...the Nino

global globalling?

clifton:To me, global warming was disproved because it got cold last winter.

yeah, but getting colder is proof its getting warmer. Haven't you gotten the memo?

Unfortunately, the idea of the self-regulating ecosystem was based on a mistake. It had been derived more from Norbert Weiner's cybernetics(abstract mathematics) than from empirical data. And by the mid-1980s, most ecologists would realize that the fundamental assumption of this mathematics --the notion of self-regulation--was false. There is no balance of nature. Living systems aren't like thermostats. They don't self-regulate. They experience constant, random, and extreme change. The biologists of this era failed to find balance, not because ecosystems everywhere were on the verge of collapse but because there never had been any balance to find.

Thanks to imperfect reasoning, ecology seemed to forecast the end of nature.

--Alston Chase

Nearby Indian tribes referred to its glaciers as the footsteps made by the creator when he descended to Earth

It's OK on Fark if natives believe in a creator ........right?
/no?
//goes back to my dancin around the FIRE.

mdeesnuts:Global warming alarmists are the hack psychologists of the 21st century.

Just more sure of themselves.

Your opinion seems to stem from a position of authority. Undoubtedly you have multiple climate science degrees.

http://www.learner.org/channel/courses/essential/earthspace/images/show6_ice_age .jpg

USA 18,000 years ago

The Mastodons must of driven SUVs back then too.

The computer models predict it so it must be true.

How to make sure *nobody* listens to anything you say.

Step 1: call people names. For example, maybe I notice that you've left the sprinkler on in your back yard. If I knock on your door and say, "you farking retard you're wasting water. Why are you so goddamn stupid?" then you're likely to just slam the door in my face and not even hear what I had to say.

Another example, just off the top of my head, if you attach a label to people who respectfully disagree with you - and bonus points if your label conjures images of holocaust deniers (way to godwin your own argument there) then I tune you out. I honestly just stop caring if global warming is happening. All I know is that the people who believe it is happening go around insulting and godwining and that makes dislike them.

/just trying to help

Jon Snow:



'Tis the thing behind the mask I chiefly hate; the malignant thing that has plagued mankind since time began; the thing that maws and mutilates our race, not killing us outright but letting us live on, with half a heart and half a lung.

I don't deny Global Warming. You can't deny that the boogie man doesn't exist because the boogie man never existed in the first place. I've seen the evidence. It's cherry picked, it's biased, it's done for political and financial gains, it's created a cult following scarier than fanatical muslims and christians (like the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement and the man in Australia dying of dehydration because he's convinced that him having a glass of water will cause such a strain on the global water supply that his glass of water will kill millions of people). Any science behind Global Warming is being questioned by by some scientists (and rejected by most), and the Global Warming supporters act almost as if it's a religion. Some seem as if they are hoping the worse case scenario happens.

Let's assume, just for one moment, that global warming is in fact wrong. Let's assume that despite the mountains of evidence, we are not pushing the world towards catastrophe by man-made means. Even assuming that none of the doomsday scenarios are true, let's look at the pros and cons of living as if they were:

Pros:
-Less pollution, and thus less airborne pollution-related problems
(incidence of asthma and other lung disorders, prettier skies, less threat to wildlife, cleaner cities, etc)
-Less dependence on foreign oil
-More sustainable long-term economic growth
-Job and technology growth in alternate fuels sector
-Along with less dependence on oil, a stronger dollar

Cons:
-Short term profit suffers
-Temporary inconvenience

Global warming happened in Florida before 1985. That's when I moved here and it was already hot.

Great Janitor:Any science behind Global Warming is being questioned by by some scientists (and rejected by most)

Actually more and more scientists are accepting man-made climate change.

Well, this story should make the Global Warming Fundies happy...

No Such Agency:T-Luv:
"Although Mount Shasta's glaciers are growing, researchers say the 4.7 billion cubic feet of ice on its flanks could be gone by 2100."

I'll be dead by then. Enjoy cleaning my mess, grandkids.

THIS. Why should I care what happens after I'm dead? Either people will figure out how to fix the climate, or they won't. It won't matter at all in the big picture if I car pool and recycle, or if I drive my pickup truck and throw my trash in the ravine. Besides, it's not like the ecosystem won't outlast us, even if there are drastic changes there will still be other species alive, like beetles and mice and things like that. All this hippy self flagellation is just mystic earth worship mumbo jumbo, in my opinion. Get over yourselves, we can't blow up the planet, it will persist.

I think it would be interesting to see what evolves after all the real big things die out. There there were some king of catastrophe that wiped out all large mammals and large reptiles and so on leaving only the tiniest animals. Would there be crazy giant stuff or would they stay small. Imagine the possibilities.

Jon Snow:If the negative effects of unchecked emissions growth were constrained only to those or those nations who ignored and/or fought the science at every opportunity, it would be a little easier to accept. As it is, the willful ignorance and outright deceit that has stymied action on this will punish those who had no say.

China and India don't give a gay rat's sore ass.

Good try though.

Jesus built my hybrid:The computer models predict it so it must be true.

I require your global warming model.

Lusiphur:Let's assume, just for one moment, that global warming is in fact wrong. Let's assume that despite the mountains of evidence, we are not pushing the world towards catastrophe by man-made means. Even assuming that none of the doomsday scenarios are true, let's look at the pros and cons of living as if they were:

Pros:
-Less pollution, and thus less airborne pollution-related problems
(incidence of asthma and other lung disorders, prettier skies, less threat to wildlife, cleaner cities, etc)
-Less dependence on foreign oil
-More sustainable long-term economic growth
-Job and technology growth in alternate fuels sector
-Along with less dependence on oil, a stronger dollar

Cons:
-Short term profit suffers
-Temporary inconvenience

If we could grow sugar cane in North America we could eliminate our dependence on foreign oil completely. I am going to go empty some aerosol cans, brb.

Farking Zardwarks:mdeesnuts:Global warming alarmists are the hack psychologists of the 21st century.

Just more sure of themselves.

Your opinion seems to stem from a position of authority. Undoubtedly you have multiple climate science degrees.

I only have two.

Descartes:Well, this story should make the Global Warming Fundies happy...

You mean these guys?

Jerry may be dead, but the legacy of stupid remains.

Pretty cool video as an Argentinian glacier begins rare winter rupture.

It could be due to the glacier's alignment. It happens annually during their summer.

This is what I love about global warming:

No matter what we do to fix the problem, it will still get warmer. We cold give up everything industrial and create ozone-making plants, and a damn thing won't change. It will gradually get warmer for a long time, and every single year people will biatch about it. It's called nature. We're just along for the ride and can't do a damn thing about it.

Deal with it.

MindStalker:Whats also interesting is the Renaissance period was much warmer than it is now



That's not what the data says[1].

Bunnyhat:I always thought we were still in the tail end of an iceage.
Meaning that the climate we know isn't what the Earth normally is and what is happening now is just natural.

The warming we're currently experiencing is much greater in terms of rate of increase compared to our emergence from the last ice age[2].

Bunnyhat:I always thought we were still in the tail end of an iceage.
Meaning that the climate we know isn't what the Earth normally is and what is happening now is just natural.

The thing is, the earth doesn't have a "normal climate". Historically, it has experienced both warming and cooling trends far more rapid than what's happening today.

Today's climate is no more normal than the climate it had a million years ago, 4 million years ago or the climate it will have 12 million years from now.

Jon Snow:That's not what the data says[1].

So what accounts for the same spike in 1000 BC?

Jonny Chimpo:Actually more and more scientists are accepting man-made climate change.

Actually that would be wrong, the Union of Concerned Scientists is made up of non scientists, unless landscapers are now considered scientists.

jst3p:Jon Snow:That's not what the data says[1].

So what accounts for the same spike in 1000 BC?

errr 1000 a.d.

mdeesnuts:Farking Zardwarks:mdeesnuts:Global warming alarmists are the hack psychologists of the 21st century.

Just more sure of themselves.

Your opinion seems to stem from a position of authority. Undoubtedly you have multiple climate science degrees.

I only have two.

O Rly? Then I'm sure you're aware of the ratio of climatologists that do and don't support the theory of AGCC. Which is strange, because it sounded above like you thought it was in question.

Lusiphur [TotalFark] 2008-07-08 09:44:29 PM


Let's assume, just for one moment, that global warming is in fact wrong. Let's assume that despite the mountains of evidence, we are not pushing the world towards catastrophe by man-made means. Even assuming that none of the doomsday scenarios are true, let's look at the pros and cons of living as if they were:

Pros:
-Less pollution, and thus less airborne pollution-related problems
(incidence of asthma and other lung disorders, prettier skies, less threat to wildlife, cleaner cities, etc)
-Less dependence on foreign oil
-More sustainable long-term economic growth
-Job and technology growth in alternate fuels sector
-Along with less dependence on oil, a stronger dollar

Cons:
-Short term profit suffers
-Temporary inconvenience


If 50% CO2 reduction by 2050 is not enough, your "temporary inconvenience" will be neither. Entire industries will be shipped overseas to countries who opt out of emission reduction or make cosmetic changes. The price of drastic cuts in 15-20 years vs. 75 years is huge. it would be disingenuous to suggest otherwise. However, raising the profile of energy conservation in the public eye is good regardless, that much is definitely true.

This glacier growth disproves global warming much like the platypus disproves evolution (yet, funnily, Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort are still searching for the crocoduck...)

clintster:Also at 11...

...fighting the frizzies.

monkey-pwnd

jst3p:Lusiphur:Let's assume, just for one moment, that global warming is in fact wrong. Let's assume that despite the mountains of evidence, we are not pushing the world towards catastrophe by man-made means. Even assuming that none of the doomsday scenarios are true, let's look at the pros and cons of living as if they were:

Pros:
-Less pollution, and thus less airborne pollution-related problems
(incidence of asthma and other lung disorders, prettier skies, less threat to wildlife, cleaner cities, etc)
-Less dependence on foreign oil
-More sustainable long-term economic growth
-Job and technology growth in alternate fuels sector
-Along with less dependence on oil, a stronger dollar

Cons:
-Short term profit suffers
-Temporary inconvenience

If we could grow sugar cane in North America we could eliminate our dependence on foreign oil completely. I am going to go empty some aerosol cans, brb.

Algae produces 15,000 gallons per acre and, it can be grown just about anywhere. If we are going to produce Ethanol lets at least grow something that produces lots of it.

A side benefit of algae is that it turns CO2 into oxygen on a massive scale.

Our future energy needs may be dependent on a weed.

Runningjoke:Jonny Chimpo:Actually more and more scientists are accepting man-made climate change.

Actually that would be wrong, the Union of Concerned Scientists is made up of non scientists, unless landscapers are now considered scientists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6321351.stm

Malbar:Bunnyhat:I always thought we were still in the tail end of an iceage.
Meaning that the climate we know isn't what the Earth normally is and what is happening now is just natural.

The thing is, the earth doesn't have a "normal climate". Historically, it has experienced both warming and cooling trends far more rapid than what's happening today.

Today's climate is no more normal than the climate it had a million years ago, 4 million years ago or the climate it will have 12 million years from now.

That's the main thing to keep in mind. We have only been recoding weather for the tiniest fraction of earth's history. We have ways to analyze and make educated guesses at how the weather might have been in the past with some level of accuracy, but we really don't know. We know that releasing greenhouse gases into the air causes temperature increases, but we don't really know how much we are effecting it with our greenhouse gas. We also don't know if we are a few years from an ice age and enough greenhouse gases could stabilize the temperatures. We also don't know if we are in a warming trend and our greenhouse gases have little effect in the grand scheme of things. The point is we don't know. Scientists can reference evidence to try and show it is going one way or the other, but nobody can guarantee anything.

Pzo211:Global warming happened in Florida before 1985. That's when I moved here and it was already hot.

Its not hot in Florida now, I'll take the 90 degree days here over the 110 - 120 degree days in california any day.

/and don't give me that dry heat shiat either, feels like opening the damn oven door out there.

jst3p:
-

I am going to go empty some aerosol cans, brb.

I've just emptied the whip cream cans in the supermarket last night, so I'm doing my part.

Lusiphur:Let's assume, just for one moment, that global warming is in fact wrong. Let's assume that despite the mountains of evidence, we are not pushing the world towards catastrophe by man-made means. Even assuming that none of the doomsday scenarios are true, let's look at the pros and cons of living as if they were:

Pros:
-Less pollution, and thus less airborne pollution-related problems
(incidence of asthma and other lung disorders, prettier skies, less threat to wildlife, cleaner cities, etc)
-Less dependence on foreign oil
-More sustainable long-term economic growth
-Job and technology growth in alternate fuels sector
-Along with less dependence on oil, a stronger dollar

Cons:
-Short term profit suffers
-Temporary inconvenience

Oh geez this argument has been trodded out so many times is pathetic.
If you haven't noticed people are
1) voluntarily cutting back on their pollution.
2) Energy prices are forcing us to.

BUT if a huge government program was to decent one day and grant all the wishes of the environmentalist and the economy did crash it would be an environmental disaster itself. Do you know why?
Poor/starving people don't give a shiat about the environment, we would return to 1980s level of pollution in no time. We would set an example for other countries on why NOT to be environmentally conscious.
Knee jerk large scale policies are almost always bad, take time, hopefully the market will figure it out, if not, we need to work on a sensible solution.

Jesus built my hybrid:Algae produces 15,000 gallons per acre and, it can be grown just about anywhere. If we are going to produce Ethanol lets at least grow something that produces lots of it.

A side benefit of algae is that it turns CO2 into oxygen on a massive scale.

Our future energy needs may be dependent on a weed.

So will emptying the aerosol cans help the algae? because it is fun.

Jesus built my hybrid:jst3p:Lusiphur:Let's assume, just for one moment, that global warming is in fact wrong. Let's assume that despite the mountains of evidence, we are not pushing the world towards catastrophe by man-made means. Even assuming that none of the doomsday scenarios are true, let's look at the pros and cons of living as if they were:

Pros:
-Less pollution, and thus less airborne pollution-related problems
(incidence of asthma and other lung disorders, prettier skies, less threat to wildlife, cleaner cities, etc)
-Less dependence on foreign oil
-More sustainable long-term economic growth
-Job and technology growth in alternate fuels sector
-Along with less dependence on oil, a stronger dollar

Cons:
-Short term profit suffers
-Temporary inconvenience

If we could grow sugar cane in North America we could eliminate our dependence on foreign oil completely. I am going to go empty some aerosol cans, brb.

Algae produces 15,000 gallons per acre and, it can be grown just about anywhere. If we are going to produce Ethanol lets at least grow something that produces lots of it.

A side benefit of algae is that it turns CO2 into oxygen on a massive scale.

Our future energy needs may be dependent on a weed.

I was actually coming here to mention the algae, but someone stole all my corn-powered computers, so I had to make due with thermal depolymerization.

All of the "average temperature going up" nuts don't understand the data.

The average LOW temperature is going up while the average HIGH temperature has stayed constant.

By the way, feel free to read the proof here: Link (new window)

It's written by 2 of the smartest atmospheric scientists on the planet.

jst3p:So what accounts for the same spike in 1000 BC?

As you can see, the spike currently in progress and the spike in 1000 AD are different in nature, with the spike being experienced now showing a more prolonged trend upwards, and one that accelerates rapidly and stay higher longer. No one is denying that the planet goes through cycles of heating and cooling. We're simply saying that the current spike is abnormal when compared to previous heating phases.

If you believe man is responsible for "Global Warming" you are a douchebag.

/losers

Malbar:The thing is, the earth doesn't have a "normal climate".

100% correct.

Historically, it has experienced both warming and cooling trends far more rapid than what's happening today.

100% incorrect. For instance, I'm conducting research for my Ph.D. in paleoclimatology on a period of time called the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum (PETM for short) that occurred ~55 million years ago. Its generally considered the fastest major increase in global temperature known in the geologic record.

Temperatures rose ~3-5°C over a span of about 10,000 years. This is similar to the increase that is projected to occur within the next 100 years. Nature has nothing on anthropogenic global warming.

No Such Agency:
Why should I care what happens after I'm dead? Either people will figure out how to fix the climate, or they won't.

Quiet while the grownups are talking

It won't matter at all in the big picture if I car pool and recycle, or if I drive my pickup truck and throw my trash in the ravine.

Yes it does. It matters like whether you get supersize fries or not. It matters like whether you get diet coke or not. It matters like whether you buy the store brand cereal or kellogg's brand cereal. Small things add up to big things.

Besides, it's not like the ecosystem won't outlast us, even if there are drastic changes there will still be other species alive, like beetles and mice and things like that. All this hippy self flagellation is just mystic earth worship mumbo jumbo, in my opinion. Get over yourselves, we can't blow up the planet, it will persist.

You're missing the point entirely. We're not saving the planet for its sake, we're saving the planet for OUR SAKE. It will be inhabitable if we continue to fark it up.

I missed most of the thread. Have we politely discussed the facts and reached a consensus decision yet?

Lusiphur:Let's assume, just for one moment, that global warming is in fact wrong. Let's assume that despite the mountains of evidence, we are not pushing the world towards catastrophe by man-made means. Even assuming that none of the doomsday scenarios are true, let's look at the pros and cons of living as if they were:

Pros:
-Less pollution, and thus less airborne pollution-related problems
(incidence of asthma and other lung disorders, prettier skies, less threat to wildlife, cleaner cities, etc)
-Less dependence on foreign oil
-More sustainable long-term economic growth
-Job and technology growth in alternate fuels sector
-Along with less dependence on oil, a stronger dollar

Cons:
-Short term profit suffers
-Temporary inconvenience

Pascal's Wager much?

/So is that why you're a Christian?

Phil Herup:If you believe man is responsible for "Global Warming" you are a douchebag.

/losers

This is not an argument

No Such Agency:

Get over yourselves, we can't blow up the planet, it will persist.

Oh yeah? (new window)

/Obligatory.

Lusiphur:jst3p:So what accounts for the same spike in 1000 BC?

As you can see, the spike currently in progress and the spike in 1000 AD are different in nature, with the spike being experienced now showing a more prolonged trend upwards, and one that accelerates rapidly and stay higher longer. No one is denying that the planet goes through cycles of heating and cooling. We're simply saying that the current spike is abnormal when compared to previous heating phases.

So the Earth has it's own natural cycles but this one must be man's fault?

I broke the dam.

jst3p:
So the Earth has it's own natural cycles but this one must be man's fault?

Yeah, since it's happening at 100X the fastest natural rate, and the only thing that's changed is carbon emissions from man-made causes.

jst3p:Lusiphur:jst3p:So what accounts for the same spike in 1000 BC?

As you can see, the spike currently in progress and the spike in 1000 AD are different in nature, with the spike being experienced now showing a more prolonged trend upwards, and one that accelerates rapidly and stay higher longer. No one is denying that the planet goes through cycles of heating and cooling. We're simply saying that the current spike is abnormal when compared to previous heating phases.

So the Earth has it's own natural cycles but this one must be man's fault?

Not exactly that its all man's fault. But it appears man is affecting the natural cycle.

Jesus built my hybrid:The computer models predict it so it must be true.

I'm all about the computer models. Moar pleez?!?!?

Farking Zardwarks:
mdeesnust...Global warming alarmists...

O Rly? Then I'm sure you're aware of the ratio of climatologists that do and don't support the theory of AGCC. Which is strange, because it sounded above like you thought it was in question.

climatologist = global warming alarmist?

You're not positively contributing to your argument.

mdeesnuts:Farking Zardwarks:
mdeesnust...Global warming alarmists...

O Rly? Then I'm sure you're aware of the ratio of climatologists that do and don't support the theory of AGCC. Which is strange, because it sounded above like you thought it was in question.

climatologist = global warming alarmist?

You're not positively contributing to your argument.

And you're not positively contributing to my opinion of your reading comprehension skills.

moothemagiccow:No Such Agency:
Why should I care what happens after I'm dead? Either people will figure out how to fix the climate, or they won't.

Quiet while the grownups are talking

It won't matter at all in the big picture if I car pool and recycle, or if I drive my pickup truck and throw my trash in the ravine.

Yes it does. It matters like whether you get supersize fries or not. It matters like whether you get diet coke or not. It matters like whether you buy the store brand cereal or kellogg's brand cereal. Small things add up to big things.

Besides, it's not like the ecosystem won't outlast us, even if there are drastic changes there will still be other species alive, like beetles and mice and things like that. All this hippy self flagellation is just mystic earth worship mumbo jumbo, in my opinion. Get over yourselves, we can't blow up the planet, it will persist.

You're missing the point entirely. We're not saving the planet for its sake, we're saving the planet for OUR SAKE. It will be inhabitable if we continue to fark it up.

Way to be histrionic and screw it up all at the same time.

Is trying to force a rapid climate change by decreasing the average temperature more devastating than global warming itself? I've always wondered this. It may sound stupid, but is curbing GW rather than leaving it alone a bad thing?

Farking Zardwarks:jst3p:
So the Earth has it's own natural cycles but this one must be man's fault?

Yeah, since it's happening at 100X the fastest natural rate, and the only thing that's changed is carbon emissions from man-made causes.

I will admit I am playing devil's advocate, and I am not very well educated in this area, so thank you for humoring me thus far. If you will indulge me further I am really interested in hearing the answer to this question, not because I think you are wrong, but for my own education:

If we are only making what would happen normally happen faster, why is this a huge problem.

Thank you.

amazing_live_seamonkeys:clintster:Also at 11...
...fighting the frizzies.

My image hoster. Let me show you it.

That is farking GOLD.

/not a Bloody William, but damn that's funny

IlGreven:This glacier growth disproves global warming much like the platypus disproves evolution (yet, funnily, Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort are still searching for the crocoduck...)

Now THAT was some quality comedy.

Approves//

Global warming will go down in history as the single biggest non-religious scam ever to be foisted upon the Earth's people.

There's a whole generation of otherwise smart, young people who have been told this "truth" their whole lives. People who have never heard anything else. How can I blame them for not knowing better? It's their reality. It's all they've known. When you can't sell adults on a conspiracy, sell it to the next generation.

I spend two hours in the car every day for work. NPR uses the term no fewer than four times each day in that time. Often, more than six. I'm there, listening to it.

A decade or two ago, it was the "ozone layer" and how we were all going to die because of the "hole" that we'd created. What happened to all that worry? What!

More recently, the focus of our hate, the real reason we're farked, is because of "Carbon." An element in the periodic table. Forget the idea that we're a carbon based life form. No, remember that! That means we're evil and the real reason we're being punished. Remember this -- All the Earth's perceived problems will revolve around carbon for the next decade or two.

Believing in global warming is a religion. You can't prove it scientifically. You have to believe in it. If you've been told it's real for your whole life, that's pretty easy to do.

Just like the devil, global warming makes an easy target to blame things on. Here's a short list of what we, as a people, have blamed on global warming in the last few years:

Acne, agricultural land increase, Afghan poppies destroyed, Africa devastated, African aid threatened, Africa in conflict, aggressive weeds, air pressure changes, Alaska reshaped, Agulhas current moves, allergies increase, Alps melting, Amazon a desert, American dream end, amphibians breeding earlier (or not), anaphylactic reactions to bee stings, ancient forests dramatically changed, animals head for the hills, Antarctic grass flourishes, Antarctic ice grows, Antarctic ice shrinks, Antarctic sea life at risk, anxiety treatment, algal blooms, archaeological sites threatened, Arctic bogs melt, Arctic in bloom, Arctic ice free, Arctic ice melt faster, Arctic lakes disappear, Arctic tundra to burn, Atlantic less salty, Atlantic more salty, atmospheric circulation modified, attack of the killer jellyfish, avalanches reduced, avalanches increased, Baghdad snow, Bahrain under water, bananas grow, barbarisation, beer shortage, beetle infestation, bet for $10,000, better beer, big melt faster, billion dollar research projects, billion homeless, billions face risk, billions of deaths, bird distributions change, bird loss accelerating, bird visitors drop, birds confused, birds return early, birds driven north, bittern boom ends, blackbirds stop singing, blackbirds threatened, blizzards, blue mussels return, bluetongue, brains shrink, bridge collapse (Minneapolis), Britain Siberian, British gardens change, brothels struggle, brown Ireland, bubonic plague, budget increases, Buddhist temple threatened, building collapse, building season extension, bushfires, business opportunities, business risks, butterflies move north, camel deaths, cancer deaths in England, cannibalism, cataracts, caterpillar biomass shift, cave paintings threatened, childhood insomnia, Cholera, circumcision in decline, cirrus disappearance, civil unrest, cloud increase, cloud stripping, cockroach migration, coffee threatened, cold climate creatures survive, cold spells (Australia), cold wave (India), computer models, conferences, conflict, conflict with Russia, consumers foot the bill, coral bleaching, coral fish suffer, coral reefs dying, coral reefs grow, coral reefs shrink , coral reefs twilight, cost of trillions, cougar attacks, cradle of civilisation threatened, creatures move uphill, crime increase, crocodile sex, crops devastated, crumbling roads, buildings and sewage systems, curriculum change, cyclones (Australia), danger to kid's health, Darfur, Dartford Warbler plague, death rate increase (US), Dengue hemorrhagic fever, depression, desert advance, desert retreat, destruction of the environment, disappearance of coastal cities, diseases move north, Dolomites collapse, drought, ducks and geese decline, dust bowl in the corn belt, early marriages, early spring, earlier pollen season, Earth biodiversity crisis, Earth dying, Earth even hotter, Earth light dimming, Earth lopsided, Earth melting, Earth morbid fever, Earth on fast track, Earth past point of no return, Earth slowing down, Earth spins faster, Earth to explode, earth upside down, Earth wobbling, earthquakes, earthquakes redux, El Niño intensification, end of the world as we know it, erosion, emerging infections, encephalitis, English villages lost, equality threatened, Europe simultaneously baking and freezing, eutrophication, evolution accelerating, expansion of university climate groups, extinctions (human, civilisation, logic, Inuit, smallest butterfly, cod, ladybirds, pikas, polar bears, gorillas, walrus, whales, frogs, toads, plants, salmon, trout, wild flowers, woodlice, penguins, a million species, half of all animal and plant species, mountain species, not polar bears, barrier reef, leaches, tropical insects) experts muzzled, extreme changes to California, fading fall foliage, fainting, famine, farmers benefit, farmers go under, farm output boost, fashion disaster, fever,figurehead sacked, fir cone bonanza, fish catches drop, fish downsize, fish catches rise, fish deaf, fish get lost, fish stocks at risk, fish stocks decline, five million illnesses, flesh eating disease, flood patterns change, floods, floods of beaches and cities, flood of migrants, flood preparation for crisis, Florida economic decline, flowers in peril, food poisoning, food prices rise, food prices soar, food security threat (SA), footpath erosion, forest decline, forest expansion, frog with extra heads, frostbite, frost damage increased, frosts, fungi fruitful, fungi invasion, games change, Garden of Eden wilts, genetic diversity decline, gene pools slashed, giant oysters invade, giant pythons invade, giant squid migrate, gingerbread houses collapse, glacial earthquakes, glacial retreat, glacial growth, glacier wrapped, global cooling, global dimming, glowing clouds, god melts, golf Masters wrecked, Gore omnipresence, grandstanding, grasslands wetter, Great Barrier Reef 95% dead, Great Lakes drop, great tits cope, greening of the North, Grey whales lose weight, Gulf Stream failure, habitat loss, Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome, harmful algae, harvest increase, harvest shrinkage, hay fever epidemic, health affected, health of children harmed, heart disease, heart attacks and strokes (Australia), heat waves, hibernation affected, hibernation ends too soon, hibernation ends too late, HIV epidemic, homeless 50 million, hornets, high court debates, human development faces unprecedented reversal, human fertility reduced, human health improvement, human health risk, human race oblivion, hurricanes, hurricane reduction, hurricanes fewer, hurricanes not, hydropower problems, hyperthermia deaths, ice sheet growth, ice sheet shrinkage, ice shelf collapse, illness and death, inclement weather, India drowning, infrastructure failure (Canada), industry threatened, infectious diseases, inflation in China, insect explosion, insurance premium rises, Inuit displacement, Inuit poisoned, Inuit suing, invasion of cats, invasion of herons, invasion of jellyfish, invasion of midges, island disappears, islands sinking, itchier poison ivy, jellyfish explosion, jets fall from sky, jet stream drifts north, Kew Gardens taxed, kidney stones, killer cornflakes, killing us, kitten boom, koalas under threat, krill decline, lake and stream productivity decline, lake empties, lake shrinking and growing, landslides, landslides of ice at 140 mph, lawsuits increase, lawsuit successful, lawyers' income increased (surprise surprise!), lives saved, Loch Ness monster dead, lush growth in rain forests, Malaria, mammoth dung melt, mango harvest fails, Maple production advanced, Maple syrup shortage, marine diseases, marine food chain decimated, Meaching (end of the world), Mediterranean rises, megacryometeors, Melanoma, methane emissions from plants, methane burps, methane runaway, melting permafrost, Middle Kingdom convulses, migration, migration difficult (birds), migratory birds huge losses, microbes to decompose soil carbon more rapidly, minorities hit, monkeys on the move, Mont Blanc grows, monuments imperiled, moose dying, more bad air days, more research needed, mortality increased, mountain (Everest) shrinking, mountains break up, mountains green and flowering, mountains melting, mountains taller, mortality lower, Myanmar cyclone, narwhals at risk, National security implications, native wildlife overwhelmed, natural disasters quadruple, new islands, next ice age, NFL threatened, Nile delta damaged, noctilucent clouds, no effect in India, Northwest Passage opened, nuclear plants bloom, oaks dying, oaks move north, ocean acidification, ocean deserts expand, ocean waves speed up, opera house to be destroyed, outdoor hockey threatened, ozone repair slowed, ozone rise, Pacific dead zone, personal carbon rationing, pest outbreaks, pests increase, phenology shifts, plankton blooms, plankton destabilised, plankton loss, plant viruses, plants march north, plants move uphill, polar bears aggressive, polar bears cannibalistic, polar bears drowning, polar bears starve, polar tours scrapped, popcorn rise, porpoise astray, profits collapse, psychiatric illness, puffin decline, railroad tracks deformed, rainfall increase, rape wave, refugees, release of ancient frozen viruses, resorts disappear, rice threatened, rice yields crash, rift on Capitol Hill, rioting and nuclear war, river flow impacted, rivers raised, roads wear out, robins rampant, rocky peaks crack apart, roof of the world a desert, rooftop bars, Ross river disease, ruins ruined, salinity reduction, salinity increase, Salmonella, satellites accelerate, school closures, sea level rise, sea level rise faster, seals mating more, sewer bills rise, severe thunderstorms, sex change, sexual promiscuity, shark attacks, sharks booming, sharks moving north, sheep shrink, shop closures, short-nosed dogs endangered, shrinking ponds, shrinking shrine, ski resorts threatened, skin cancer, slow death, smaller brains, smog, snowfall increase, snowfall heavy, snowfall reduction, soaring food prices, societal collapse, songbirds change eating habits, sour grapes, space problem, spectacular orchids, spiders invade Scotland, squid aggressive giants, squid population explosion, squirrels reproduce earlier, stingray invasion, storms wetter, stormwater drains stressed, street crime to increase, subsidence, suicide, swordfish in the Baltic, Tabasco tragedy, taxes, tectonic plate movement, teenage drinking, terrorism, threat to peace, ticks move northward (Sweden), tides rise, tomatoes rot, tornado outbreak, tourism increase, trade barriers, trade winds weakened, traffic jams, transportation threatened, tree foliage increase (UK), tree growth slowed,, trees could return to Antarctic, trees in trouble, trees less colourful, trees more colourful, trees lush, tropics expansion, tropopause raised, truffle shortage, turtles crash, turtles lay earlier, UK coastal impact, UK Katrina, Vampire moths, Venice flooded, volcanic eruptions, walrus pups orphaned, walrus stampede, war, wars over water, wars sparked, wars threaten billions, wasps, water bills double, water supply unreliability, water scarcity (20% of increase), water stress, weather out of its mind, weather patterns awry, weeds, Western aid cancelled out, West Nile fever, whales move north, whales wiped out, wheat yields crushed in Australia, wildfires, wind shift, wind reduced, wine - harm to Australian industry, wine industry damage (California), wine industry disaster (US), wine - more English, wine - England too hot, wine -German boon, wine - no more French , wine passé (Napa), wine stronger, winters in Britain colder, winter in Britain dead, witchcraft executions, wolves eat more moose, wolves eat less, workers laid off, World at war, World bankruptcy, World in crisis, World in flames, Yellow fever.

http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/warmlist.htm

/now, use this thread as a reason to post pictures of your wicked-cool, 12 speed bike!
//you're trendy!

Animatronik:Entire industries will be shipped overseas to countries who opt out of emission reduction or make cosmetic changes.

No, certain segments, specifically the very low value-added segments, of those industries will get shipped overseas. On the other hand, a serious national focus on alternate energy would open the door to a huge boom in much higher value-added jobs, that is research, product testing and development, implementation, etc. So yes, Michigan might lose more factory jobs. On the other hand, those factory jobs and their "too good to pass up but not good enough to get out" pay are what has kept the midwest firmly in the working poor category. On the other hand, a serious push for alternate energy by the government, like the space race complete with full scholarships for math and science students and re-education for any workers that lose their jobs to outsourcing, will revitalize the economy in the same way that the space race did by providing new opportunities and hundreds of thousands of well trained minds that can actually compete with the rest of the world.

MindStalker:hopefully the market will figure it out, if not, we need to work on a sensible solution.

The Market is notoriously bad about thinking in terms of long-term goals. I'm not saying pass a law requiring 75% carbon cuts in the next 10 years. I'm saying cut all unnecessary spending and invest that money directly into alternative energy research and production and the associated industries and services, like education. Within 4 years, we will have a slew of new engineers ready to tackle the problem, and within 10 we'll have a solution. I guess I'm just a left-wing radical for suggesting such a drastic change, though.

The Grinnell Glacier doing some 'Inconvenient' retreating early last century! CLICK ON IMAGE ('Repeat' photos courtesy of USGS)



Quickpost this image to Myspace, Digg, Facebook, and others!

Dr._Michael_Hfuhruhurr:crap

jst3p:Farking Zardwarks:jst3p:
So the Earth has it's own natural cycles but this one must be man's fault?

Yeah, since it's happening at 100X the fastest natural rate, and the only thing that's changed is carbon emissions from man-made causes.

I will admit I am playing devil's advocate, and I am not very well educated in this area, so thank you for humoring me thus far. If you will indulge me further I am really interested in hearing the answer to this question, not because I think you are wrong, but for my own education:

If we are only making what would happen normally happen faster, why is this a huge problem.

Thank you.

Well, for many reasons, this is not a good thing. First, the rate of change is so rapid now that there is little chance of any of the natural buffering mechanisms to act. These include organismal adaptation as well as bio/geochemical buffers like ocean pH.

Second, the rate of change is so rapid that we are going to hit a greater average global temperature than mankind has ever experienced, probably within the next 100 years. This increased temperature will cause incredible strains on energy, water and food supplies

Third, once we skyrocket past these record high temperatures, we will be in uncharted territory for ALL the organisms on the planet. We don't know how high temperature will affect the biochemistry of physiology on such a massive scale. It could do nothing, or it could cause failure in such hugely important chemical reactions as the ones found in the Calvin-Benson cycle. We know how a few organisms deal with high heat physiologically, but not nearly enough to predict what will happen on an ecological scale.

Sorry for the Tolstoy, but that is just the tip of the glacier when it comes to the problems we're looking at.

Uh oh, looks like Dr._Michael_Hfuhruhurr forgot to take his meds this evening.

Jon Snow:MindStalker:Whats also interesting is the Renaissance period was much warmer than it is now

That's not what the data says[1].

Bunnyhat:I always thought we were still in the tail end of an iceage.
Meaning that the climate we know isn't what the Earth normally is and what is happening now is just natural.

The warming we're currently experiencing is much greater in terms of rate of increase compared to our emergence from the last ice age[2].

It's hilarious watching you gorebot crackpots with your charts knowing that even in real time climate observations, today, your data collectors can't account for the missing heat in Earth's climate system. You got five hundred years ago all figured out though...yeah.

Just give it up now and apologize to the borderline retarded liberal children for scaring the piss out of them for the last several years with your doomsday bullshiat, doomsayer.

I know, I know, photo FAIL. I shoulda thought better than to do that. Meh, I'll try again.



Fighting the Frizzies, at 11

Dr._Michael_Hfuhruhurr

I'll give you an 'A' for effort if you actually typed that list out. But if you just copied and pasted it, that was the single most annoying and pointless post I've ever seen on Fark.

Noam Chimpsky:It's hilarious watching you gorebot crackpots with your charts

ROFL

Yeah those goddamn crackpots with their numbers and things. Stupid elitists.

/get over yourself, unthinking dupes.

Farking Zardwarks:
And you're not positively contributing to my opinion of your reading comprehension skills.

I do apologize for unknowingly provoking you. I'll rephrase my boobies;

Global warming alarmists are like schizophrenic phrenologists.

/please don't tell me you have double major
//yes, I'll have fries with that

jst3p:If we are only making what would happen normally happen faster, why is this a huge problem.

Three big reasons off the top of my head:

1. Human civilization is agriculturally and demographically set up under the relatively (but not always) stable norms of the current interglacial. We have breadbaskets feeding sprawling coastal megalopolises- neither of which can be easily relocated fast enough to respond to rapid climate change. We are quite literally talking about forcing the climate into ranges unknown to homo sapiens.
2. Both the pace of the projected warming and our slicing up and compartmentalizing the natural worlds combine to create a situation where plant and animal species are stranded on ever shrinking "islands" habitation-wise. This will lead to a much greater level of extinction than either a human-free or slower change would.
3. None of the above takes into consideration the very real threat of resource and refugee driven armed conflicts.

Lusiphur:MindStalker:hopefully the market will figure it out, if not, we need to work on a sensible solution.

The Market is notoriously bad about thinking in terms of long-term goals. I'm not saying pass a law requiring 75% carbon cuts in the next 10 years. I'm saying cut all unnecessary spending and invest that money directly into alternative energy research and production and the associated industries and services, like education. Within 4 years, we will have a slew of new engineers ready to tackle the problem, and within 10 we'll have a solution. I guess I'm just a left-wing radical for suggesting such a drastic change, though.

No, your not a left wing radical, left wing radicals are ones who want to impliment huge punishments for people not doing things the way they thing they should be doing them. Investing in science infact is written into the constitution "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;" Ok they might not have had exactly the same idea, but the idea of the Feds promoting science is pretty old.

/obscure?

mdeesnuts:Farking Zardwarks:
And you're not positively contributing to my opinion of your reading comprehension skills.

I do apologize for unknowingly provoking you. I'll rephrase my boobies;

Global warming alarmists are like schizophrenic phrenologists.

/please don't tell me you have double major
//yes, I'll have fries with that

Haha, I did have a double major for undergrad (Ecology/Marine Biology). However, I still don't think we've assessed the basis upon which you're attacking global warming alarmists. That is, of course, if you're equating global warming alarmists with people who interpret the data as saying that there is an anthropogenic origin to fluctuating global mean temperatures.

Lusiphur:Animatronik:Entire industries will be shipped overseas to countries who opt out of emission reduction or make cosmetic changes.

No, certain segments, specifically the very low value-added segments, of those industries will get shipped overseas. On the other hand, a serious national focus on alternate energy would open the door to a huge boom in much higher value-added jobs, that is research, product testing and development, implementation, etc. So yes, Michigan might lose more factory jobs. On the other hand, those factory jobs and their "too good to pass up but not good enough to get out" pay are what has kept the midwest firmly in the working poor category. On the other hand, a serious push for alternate energy by the government, like the space race complete with full scholarships for math and science students and re-education for any workers that lose their jobs to outsourcing, will revitalize the economy in the same way that the space race did by providing new opportunities and hundreds of thousands of well trained minds that can actually compete with the rest of the world.

MindStalker:hopefully the market will figure it out, if not, we need to work on a sensible solution.

The Market is notoriously bad about thinking in terms of long-term goals. I'm not saying pass a law requiring 75% carbon cuts in the next 10 years. I'm saying cut all unnecessary spending and invest that money directly into alternative energy research and production and the associated industries and services, like education. Within 4 years, we will have a slew of new engineers ready to tackle the problem, and within 10 we'll have a solution. I guess I'm just a left-wing radical for suggesting such a drastic change, though.

Junior, you so have it figured out. You should have skipped basket weaving, and sat chaos theory. Your simplistic goggles are Utopian. Enjoy your end game.

stirfrybry:/obscure?

Farking Zardwarks:

Jon Snow:

Thank you both.

jst3p:So the Earth has it's own natural cycles but this one must be man's fault?

Or of course it could just be a magical coincidence that a statistically abnormal spike perfectly coincides with the advent of industrialism on a mass scale. If I were prone to gamble, I'd put money on it.

Bluegill:Pascal's Wager much?

WTF are you talking about? Are you really that stupid that you can't see the difference between Pascals wager and a concrete cost/benefit analysis? I rarely get all foaming at the mouth about any topic, but sometimes people really say something so stupid that I cannot contain my derision, and this is one of those times. Now how about you go sit in the corner while the grown-ups talk. Oh, atheist, ICYWW.

/Crap, forgot to take bipolar meds

meatRocket:Junior, you so have it figured out. You should have skipped basket weaving, and sat chaos theory. Your simplistic goggles are Utopian. Enjoy your end game.

Enjoy your right wing servitude.

jst3p:Farking Zardwarks:

Jon Snow:

Thank you both.

Thank Jon Snow more, he always brings the numbers.

Surface of Earth with no Sun ~0°K.
Surface of Earth with Sun ~287°K (yearly "average").

Realize 1°K over 100 years could easily be the Sun fluctuating by 0.3%.

Realize not all is known about the Sun.

Then Walk away.

Damn you're all lame...

I'm Super Serial!!! Excelsior!!!

Noam Chimpsky:Just give it up now and apologize to the borderline retarded liberal children for scaring the piss out of them for the last several years with your doomsday bullshiat, doomsayer.

I'm trying to get my conspiracy-theorist, science-deniers straight. Are you the guy that claims that there is a concerted mission to use ice-breakers to destroy polar ice in furtherance of the global climate change conspiracy? If not, I have you Farkyed wrong and do apologize.

MrSeabass:Is trying to force a rapid climate change by decreasing the average temperature more devastating than global warming itself? I've always wondered this. It may sound stupid, but is curbing GW rather than leaving it alone a bad thing?

By "tryin