Judgment on Capello clouded by craving for a continental saviour

If, like me, you were curious to find out how the England U21s got on tonight against Portugal, not being inclined to take advantage of Brian Barwick's legacy to to the nation --- England Full and U21 internationals relegated to the least-watched bidder with no guarantee of even highlights on a terrestrial channel, you probably came to the Guardian. In vain. I'd gained the impression that a lot of the contributors to these blogs felt that the future of English football was fairly inextricably interlinked with the U21 team, but the feeling doesn't seem to be reciprocated. So here's a random report on the game: http://www.sportinglife.com/football/international/england/news/story_get.dor?STORY_NAME=soccer/08/09/05/SOCCER_England_Under-21.html&TEAMHD=england

Look away now if you don't want to know that they did rather well.

how typical of your outrageous ignorance that you suggest Erikssons "best fortune" was to have an "in prime David Beckham".Just laughable.Cringeworthy even.No mention of the fact that the guy had far superior technicians at his disposal-if hed had the inteligence and depth of coaching awareness to utilise them.Paul Scholes for example,a man who Eriksson should have built his side around,was sidelined in favour of the poster boy who was Erikssons golden ticket to the riches of the celebrity lifestyle.Would Mccara elect to expand on what an "in prime" david beckham actually delivered to the england side against the adult opponents of world football?Was there ever a player so hyped who came up so short so consistently when the truest tests begun to arrive?And Mccara sees "becks" as Erikssons piece of "luck".A deluded football writer who knows nothing of our game pontificating on a deluded generation of footballers with a decadently empty coach who didnt know how to build a side with any depth of character cherry topped with the most comically overrated footballer in the history of the sport.Im glad its over.But is it?It appears we STILL have to put up with Beckham starting for England and Mccara inflicting us with his pointless crap in a never-ending nightmare for all concerned.Please someone tell me this isnt real?

Oh Christ Kevin! You mentioned the 'B' word....

Can't really disagree with the genaral thrust of this piece; the last paragraph, in particular, is insightful, but probably stops short of stating the real truth of the matter - namely, that the football manager's role is completely overstated (certainly in this country), especially with regard to international football.

It was the architect of 'total football' himself, Rinus Michels, who said: "the players make the game on the field" (yes, I see the paradox in referring to him as its "architect"). We need better and smarter players and, as Mr MacCarra says, more of them. No realistic challenge to Ashley Cole? No international class left-footed attackers? A dearth of genuine number 9s?

I feel that until this country's media (print and broadcast) stops ludicrously overexaggerating the supposed quality of its better players - Golden Generation? Ha! - we will never actually grasp the limitations of our whole footballing culture, much less be able to rectify them. Our values are, to adumbrate, too Protestant; our players are, well, too thick; our 'experts' too arrogant.

Let the children PLAY

marsman, would England have even qualified for 02 and 04 without Beckham, he was a very good player at that time.

Tonka,

you do not know what you are doing!

And if you do, you are very naughty.

Tonka-playing the way they did so that all the ammo went to beckham and all shape was binned just to please the pretty boy?Probably not.By not having the neck-chain on and off the pitch of Beckham and his WAG-infesting culture and creating an ADULT side built on the philosophy of a manager like sir alex ferguson for example with the true technical talents like Scholes the centre of attention?AbsoFUCKINlutely.

...and we might well have had the depth of constitution to produce something meaningful when we got to the events aswell.

(sticking head above the parapet)

Still life on Mars then...

You can hardly blame Beckham for England's faults. Anyone who doesn't realize he was the most effective player for England over the last decade is deluding themselves. Yes, the team became over-reliant on him at times (England 2 Greece 2) but that's not his fault.

Clarkycat, I think you'll find that not only can marsman blame all of England's faults on Beckham, but he probably also holds him responsible for global warming and the credit crunch.

marsman - Becks, as wealth-flaunting, flamboyant, flashy as he is(outside football), is as humble, workman-like in the game. This man lead, scored for, created chances and ran on average kilometres more than every team member of the past England team. You may not appreciate him enough, but do not disrepect him. He has an OBE, you do not(me thinks).

What links...

David Beckham
Jasper Carrott
Judith Chalmers
Gérard Houllier
Danny La Rue
Kylie Minogue
Bobby Moore ?

Although Scholes should certainly have had a greater role, I don't see why it should have been at the expense of Beckham, Scholes played centre mid and Beckham right wing and they played together well enough for Man U

Judgement on Capello clouded?

The whole point of appointing Capello was that we get a brilliant manager who is successful at all he does, and this time we WONT blame the manager for the continual failure of English football (as we always do). We will find the real reason.

Already, to me, the facts for failure are emerging (and by failure I mean not achieving potential rather than try to win every tournament)

The emerging facts are that English fans get on the back of their team and NOT behind them. They create a bad atmosphere. The press put the team under unrealistic pressure to succeed. The Czechs said the English fans were the worst they have ever experienced. Terry talks about the unrealistic pressure.... There is nothing wrong with the players or the manager or his system: It is the fans and press.

In Germany, the fans get behind their team, they have the unreaslistic weight of winning every tournament or getting to the final (because of past success and NOT because of the fans expectations), but, the fans and press dont destroy the team for playing less than brilliantly at the begining of the season. Germany have continually failed against big opposition in the last 6 to 8 years, yet, the fans and press are patient with the team and manager . They dont destroy him, they see it as a difficult jobs in difficult circumsdtances and this is rewarded when the do well in tournament finals after often just scraping qualification.

Stop criticising the team and manager and start having understanding and patience, and maybe England will find the space and clam to achieve there (realistic) aims of reaching a QF or even SF.

Why does the mere mention of Beckham bring marsman to a blog in all his foaming mouth, poorly punctuated glory? What is it, marsman, that has so enraged you?

Does mrs marsman show a preference for retiring to the bedroom with a copy of Heat and a vibrator, per chance?

geebo

"Stop criticising the team and manager and start having understanding and patience, and maybe England will find the space and clam to achieve there (realistic) aims of reaching a QF or even SF"

That is never going to happen, its what the English fans & press do best

I fear that Marsman doth protest too much. I suspect he sleeps under a David Beckham duvet in David Beckham underwear. It's Posh he hates really.

England to win tonight, comfortably.

Don't want to think about Wednesday night though...

http://zummer.blogspot.com/

it must be hard writing about nothing!

There is no two ways about why England are poor:

Technically, the players are not good enough.

I can't stress this enough. Some players, such as Joe Cole and Steven Gerrard, are class acts but simply don't match up with the level elsewhere.

A few years ago (2004-2006 ish) the big debate was concerning the left-wing position - who should play there? Joe Cole was the only player deemed good enough, but at the time he was really more of a central attacking midfielder. But we went with him anyway. Meanwhile, look at France at the same time. Who did they have on the left wing? Robert Pires. Players like Laurent Robert and Stephane Dalmat (go on, go to Youtube and look how much talent both have) rarely ever made the squad for the nation. As yourself - if England had a left-winger at the time with Robert's or Dalmat's exquisite technical ability, would there be any chance of them not being in the squad? Exactly.

So, what's the remedy?

Firstly, make children (5-16) play five-a-side instead of on a dull pitch. This gives each player more time on the ball and less space to use, thus increasing technique. Less pressure on the little ones would also help.

Secondly, more, many more, English players (internationals or otherwise) simply MUST play abroad. It broadens a player's horizons and will often give them another dimension as they adapt to a league that isn't based entirely on speed and strength, unlike the English Premier League.

Finally, the FA must be restructured, top to bottom, with more money for grassroots level football.

Making these changes would be a positive step forward, although recognition of the real problems is desperately needed beforehand.

"Firstly, make children (5-16) play five-a-side instead of on a dull pitch. This gives each player more time on the ball and less space to use, thus increasing technique. Less pressure on the little ones would also help."

*evidently, that's meant to read FULL-SIZE pitch, not dull pitch. Ahem.

"evidently, that's meant to read FULL-SIZE pitch, not dull pitch."

If kids 5-16 are still playing on a full-sized pitch then it's a 'dull' pitch, frankly

@McCarra

"When Sven-Goran Eriksson started work with England in 2001 there was some brooding, but the actual protest comprised little more than a bloke in a John Bull outfit holding a placard in front of the Football Association offices."

So how do you explain McClaren, then? I suppose he was chosen solely for his world-class managerial ability?

Steve McClaren was the panic placement Barwick resorted to when his preferred option, the decidedly enigmatic foreigner Big 'Phil' Scolari exercised his full rights of enigmaticy and said no.

marsman

cut it out with the beckham obessessio you have mate - your a laughing stock

Few things to think about:

1) England never did as good as under Eriksson (two WC quarter finals and one Euro quarter final, two losses at penalties and one to Brazil by one odd goal) since 1990..

2) we are often celebrating Gascoigne, Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney, Ince, Terry, Ferdinand, Lineker, Platt, Adams, Waddle, Cole, Hargreaves, Carrick, Scholes, Pearce and Owen as the best English players in the last 20 years, while:

France has/had Zidane, Henry, Vieira, Trezeguet, Cantona, Pires, Papin, Makelele, Thuram, Blanc, Gallas, Ribery, Benzema, Deshamps, Desailly, Nasri, Abidal, Lizarazu, etc.

Germany has/had Klinsmann, Matthaus, Haessler, Ballack, Littbarski, Scholl, Sammer, Klose, Brehme, Schneider, Moeller, Voeller, Bierhoff, Lahm, Frings, Schweinsteiger, Podolski, Kahn, Lehamnn, etc.

Italy has/had Baggio, Zola, Vialli, Donadoni, Del Piero, Totti, Mancini, Baresi, Maldini, Cannavaro, Nesta, Peruzzi, Buffon, Pirlo, Zambrotta, Inzaghi, Montella, Chiesa, Di Canio, Camoranesi, Gattuso, Di Matteo, Casiraghi, etc.

Spain has/had Raul, Morientes, Hierro, Guardiola, Baquero, Fabregas, F.Torres, Villa, Helguera, Silva, Sergi, Casillas, Amor, Baraja, Beguiristain, Xabi Alonso, Iniesta, Xavi, Bojan, S.Ramos, Senna, etc.

Portugal has/had Futre, Rui Costa, Figo, Deco, Paulo Sousa, C.Ronaldo, Quaresma, Joao Pinto, Nani, J.Moutinho, Costinha, Tiago, F.Couto, R.Carvalho, Ricardo, N.Gomes, etc.

Holland has/had Bergkamp, Van Basten, Gullit, Rijkaard, Davids, Overmars, Seedorf, Klujvert, Sneijder, Van der Vaart, Van Persie, Robben, Van Nilsterooy, Koeman, Stam, Van der Saar, Kuyt, Babel, Huntelaar, etc.

Serbia/montenegro has/had Mijatovic, Savicevic, Stojkovic, Stankovic, Mihajlovic, Vidic, Vucinic, etc.

Croatia has/had Suker, Prosinecki, Bocksic, Modric, Boban, Olic, Jarni, Rakitic, Krancjar, Vlaovic,

Sweden has/had H.Larsson, Brolin, Ibrahimovic, Ljunberg, K.Andersson, Limpar, etc.

Denmark has/had M.Laudrup, B.Laudrup, Schmeichel, Jorgensen, Tomasson, Vilfort, Gravesen, Helveg, etc.

Romania has/had Hagi, Lacatus, Raducioiu, Dumitrescu, Sabau, Petrescu, Petre, Mutu, Chivu, Rat, etc.

Bulgaria has/had Stoichkov, Letchkov, Balakov, Berbatov, Petrov, Mikhailov, Bojinov, etc.

Czech Rep. has/had Skuhravi, Poborski, Rosicki, Nedved, Cech, Berger, Koller, Smicer, Kadlec, Repka, Jankulovski, etc.

3) Players make a winning team. A manager can just display them at their best not more. Is there a manager who can make Atalanta win serie A next season? If he exists, give me his name NOW!!

4) Expectations in England are the same as in Germany and Italy, possibly more. But according to NT results over time (40 years), we are not talking about the same things.
So probably it's fans and media who are mistaken, and put a lot of pressure on players who then underperform, considering that they were not world beaters anyways.

"Eriksson started work with England in 2001 there was some brooding, but the actual protest comprised little more than a bloke in a John Bull outfit holding a placard in front of the Football Association offices."

Finger on the pulse as ever.

"Yet we forget that they are also fallible people who can flounder."

I love the we.

"Each of these coaches truly is a man of substance"

Jamie Carragher: "I was never sure if Eriksson was an international manager or international playboy. I know what he was best at."

Eriksson's decision to grant an international debut to the 31-year-old Charlton left-back Chris Powell was claimed as inspirational.

BY YOU!!

The distinction between Capello and Eriksson is slight.

Capello is held in far higher esteem as a coach by just about everybody.

But I think we can agree Eriksson was lucky.

"In Germany, the fans get behind their team, they have the unreaslistic weight of winning every tournament or getting to the final (because of past success and NOT because of the fans expectations), but, the fans and press dont destroy the team for playing less than brilliantly at the begining of the season."

If Germans had had the lack of success we've had and more importantly pay the prices we do to see such drek, I doubt there'd be any fans left in the stadium to boo.

"Germany have continually failed against big opposition in the last 6 to 8 years, yet, the fans and press are patient with the team and manager"

Yeah, just a WC final and semi and a Euro final in that time, the poor deprived lambs. They'd all be twatting knighted for that here.

It's too easy to blame the fans and media. It was the FA (or rather its Scottish head) who said they were building towards a WC win in 2006. That and their vanity project Wembley which is an appalling albatross. Imagine Italy or Germany had failed to qualify for a tournament. Their next game was a friendly against the Swiss. They would probably have to beg for forgiveness and give away tickets. Here the FA charge £50 for a ticket. And they sell 86,000! I remember Italy being booed the first game they played after winning the world cup. If England won a trophy they'd get a free pass for years afterwards, and maybe that's part of the problem. The ever dwindling English part of the English is in poor health, but I think it's wrong to blame the fans for that. How about a bit of intelligent leadership from the top for a change?

guest1977 - i've completely missed the point you're trying to make when listing all those players. care to explain?

Two words.
Emile Heskey.

I think the fans are fully justified in having a go at the england set up. Erickson, maclaren and now seemingly capello seemed obsessed with continually picking teams that weren't functioning properly. In germany we were the only side that having performed badly for two group games then went ahead and picked the same bloody side again under the protection of manager and players making fatuous remarks along the lines of, 'we know we have to perform well at some stage'. Pretty much the same comments Terry made yesterday. I can't recall any side having made a gash of a tournament or qualifiers then proceeding into the next set of games with virtually the same team, and, after the luxury of five friendlies, with almost no experimentation. I am astounded that capello is apparently revisiting the errors of the two previous idiots and by the sounds of it expecting lampard to suddenly blossom in an england shirt.
As a fan I want england to play good football above anything else. To talk of grinding out a result because three points is more important removes the be all and end all of watching top class football.. don't we watch to see players doing things that we can't ? If I want to watch defenders lump the ball in the air and play obvious passes to stationary, marked men then I'll go for a walk up the park and watch 'Trade Paints' sky it for a bit.
I'm torn between wanting england to do well this week because it's a default setting and wanting them embarrassed so that some much needed, desperately required changes will finally be made to the structures managing, playing and coaching in this country.

marsman - MOVE ON!

thefridge

The point was:

Best players since 1990 (and goalie)

Germany: Ballack/Matthaus (goalie: Illgner)
Italy: Baggio/Zola (goalie: Buffon)
France: Zidane/Henry (goalie: Barthez)
Holland: Van Basten/Bergkamp (goalie: Van der Saar)
Portugal: Figo/C.Ronaldo (goalie: Vitor Baia)
Spain: Raul/F.Torres (goalie: Casillas)
Romania: Hagi/Mutu (goalie: Lobont)
Bulgaria: Stoichkov/Berbatov (goalie: Mikhailov)
Serbia&Montenegro: Savicevic/Stojkovic (goalie: Stojkovich)
Croatia: Boban/Suker (goalie: Pletikosa)
Sweden: H.Larsson/Ibrahimovic (goalie: Ravelli)
Denmark: M.Laudrup/B.Laudrup (goalie: Schmeichel)

England:
Gascoigne/Owen...?
Beckham/Shearer...?
Rooney/Gerrard...?
And goalies after Shilton..: Seaman? James? Robinson? Carson?...

Even smaller nations has had players of the same quality of English players of the last 18 years or so. And if you look at average quality, the result looks even worse.

Something to think about is how players are developed in England since they are kids, and how they are taught to play.

No manager of a NT can fix that. Be him English or foreign, he simply would never be able to do it.

codfather-when england do,so can i.

English players are crumblers and for the most part lack creativity. Capello will follow a very similar path to Sven before skipping off with a ridiculous amount of cash for what essentially is not that much work. It makes me sick, we need to cull from the top down all directors and employees of the FA and work on allowing football and sports in general to be available to all before we will see any cup glories for England. We are just not good enough. I have said this thousands of times but what are happening with the academies that Brooking spoke about in 2002 (i think)??? As for needing players like Scholes back in the squad, Scholes like all other players for England did not play to his potential for England and I can't think of a single player who has in my lifetime. So to say that is one of the many cruxes of our inadequacy is pretty naive.
http://www.footballfilter.com

on a different note- what song will be played tonight as England's Anthem? Why not "There'll Always Be An England"?

or for marsmans' benefit that could be rewritten as:

"We'll Always Play Dave Beckham"

the chorus lyrics could start:

"We'll always play Dave Beckham
No matter that he's slow
and always makes the same damn pass..."

you get the idea.

Good luck today.

How can marsman move on if England can't and still pick the useless Beckham? Sure, he was more effective and could run in the past but he totally ruined England's chances in numerous tournaments with his 'look at me, I'm great' antics on the field and celebrity shenanigans off it, encouraged no doubt by his odious and talentless wife. It wasn't worth having him for the occasional (missed) free kicks and (missed) penalties. England would have been better off if he had never been born. It's the laughing stock of world football that he still gets selected. I don't care what league he plays in, Lothar Matthaus was good enough (and older than Beckham the plonker) to play for Germany when based in America. Marsman is 100 % right in his opinions. Open all your eyes - Beckham has destroyed your teams chances for over a decade now. Shameful!

My mindset is similar to that of the Germans and Italians, England should be more than capable of producing good players & managers, and we should have the talent to compete on the Euro/World stage.

That said, despite his obscene wages, I wasn't that upset when Ericsson was appointed. Then, as now, the England team were pretty dire, and formed around a clique which needed to be broken. I was hoping that an outsider would prove to be free of preconceptions, and start afresh. Sadly, player power seemed to prevail again, and it was more of the same old same old. McClaren was no improvement, and I'm now getting a sense of deja vu with Capello vis a vis Ericsson - i.e. more obscene wages for the management team, and the same underperforming prima donnas on the pitch.

I'd like to think that there is a potential English manager out there who could break the mould, reinvigorate the team, and not bow to player pressure by including players who deserve to be there on merit, and not some sort of reputation. Southgate looks to be the best bet when the time comes.

Watching Agbonlahor run at the defence and scoring for the U21s last night shows we really do have talent knocking on the door, but is Capello going to risk upsetting the clique by letting him in?

danamo; beckham is goldenballs, jasper carrots show is called goldenballs but as for the rest i'm stumped

The problem with the English players is that they have been so well trained to do exactly as they are told that they are seemingly unable to operate without independent thought. When faced with a situation they are not used to, their only response is to hit the ball long. When they find themselves out of position, they can't cope. They need to be told what to do. We have few flexible players who are happy wide left, happy in the centre, happy anywhere. Until we produce modern footballers akin to the French, the Brazilians, the Croatians, we will always fail. Our players know it as we can see when they play against any team with a wee bit of sophistication about them.

Most thinking on football on this country is too rigid, too dogmatic. I'd hope that Capello would bring some new thinking ...

guest 1977
owen and gascoigne were better than quite a lot of those players, and some of those goalies were pretty ropey

Again, the nature of the problem England faces (yes, I use the singular) is more than amply demonstrated by the nature of the bloggers here... All whining criticism and foaming rage. As a rule, little or no thought is given towards constructive analysis, but rather the usual knee-jerk hate (emphasized with a great deal of spittle) thrown towards the target of the day, be it Beckham or be it Rooney.
Generally I suppose, by some fat, no-necked spluttering Alf Garnett type.
God almighty... I pray for the day when a player throws his jersey on the ground in the centre circle, spits towards the thuggish boo-boys and the bitching pressbox, says "F*** this for a lark", and buggers off to play elsewhere.
And then you'll say "Got no pride in the jersey", won't you?

Guys - just don't believe the media hype where they portray England as one of the world's greatest teams. I think that is where the problem lies and the expectation is what poisons the atmosphere around the team and there is little managers can do about it.

I know the press do it just to sell papers but if we look at results alone, England are a fairly middling team. We are not terrible but not one of the world's greatest either. As Capello has shown through his team selections (as McClaren and Sven too), they are sorely lacking in a range of world class players to pick from. That is why all of them are desperate to try to fit Lampard and Gerrard in the same team even though it doesn't work (whether he gives that later is up to Fabio) but he is a man trying it out of desperation/experimentation.

Frankly I think England are just the national equivalent of Newcastle United - big fan base, will sell lots of shirts, high & unrealistic exceptions, can't really outside of the Tyne Wear area, go through managers like a knife through butter and err have an ok-ish team.

Saying that - I'll still support England til I die. They are my country, love it or hate it...

liberecak

Owen and Gascoigne, unlike most of those players, lasted for very few seasons and played well only in England, apart from an international tournament and a half each (1990 WC for Gascoigne, WC 1998 and 2002 for Owen).
Not enough.

Think about:
Baggio/Zola/Vieri/Maldini
Matthaus/Klinsmann/Ballack/Sammer
Zidane/Henry/Vieira/Thuram
Figo/C.Ronaldo/Rui Costa
Van Basten/Rijakaard/Van Nilsterooy/Bergkamp
Raul/F.Torres/Fabregas/Morientes
Mutu/Hagi/Chivu
Stoichkov/Berbatov
Suker/Boban/Bocksic
Stojkovic/Savicevic
Ibrahimovic/H.Larsson/Ljunberg

Most of them (not all, I agree) lasted longer, played well in more than one country and at least two international tournament.

Fear eats the soul

Kevin is mostly right, except that there's one big difference between Eriksson and Capello: the Swede managed England in the way you would expect him to, but Capello has not been Capello since he took over.

As a Roma fan who has followed Don Fabio's career with interest, I am amazed at his team selections with England. I fear he has lost his confidence because of his difficulties with the language. He's letting the tabloids pick the team for him, as did McClaren, after a game or two.

Everywhere else he's been, Capello has removed the fans' favourites from his side in order to stamp his authority on te squad. With England, the old favourites are first on the team sheet.

"Guys - just don't believe the media hype where they portray England as one of the world's greatest teams. I think that is where the problem lies and the expectation is what poisons the atmosphere around the team and there is little managers can do about it."

A take a different view ronaldez. I suggest that the England regulars [too many of them]thought that they were a quality team but know that deep down [not too deep] they cannot play as a unit ala EPL because as individuals most are not very good at all. They have nothing to offer.

Time for the likes of Agbonlahor, Young and Hart to be played on a regular basis - They have confidence, sharper vision and a desire to win.

Again the Andorra game was a shambles and the England players along with Capello should be ashamed of themselves.

CeeDee:

I agree to 1000000000%

And I'm English.

This board perfectly sums up the complete and utter lack of gumption, clue, insight and knowledge shown by 90% of the players, fans and administrators in the English game.

To think, we invented the game 150 years ago, and still, to this day, we have failed to realise that the key to the game of football is possession...the retention of the ball. The Europeans and South Americans figured this out a long long time ago.

Our tactical nous equates to a freaky obsession with team formations and plenty of 'get stuck in' fist waving.

Ridiculous.