While pastoring in Missouri, I saw one church in the community split three times in 6 years. Each time the person had grown in their ministry responsibilities at the church, got disgruntled at something, and then ripped a group of people from the main church. This wasn't a very large town.

Not only did it damage the main church and the pastor at that church, but it made the church in general look very bad in that community.

It's important for aspiring church-planters (especially young, inexperienced ones like me) to check their motives and seek God's vision for the city to which they minister. I know my motives have not always been pure. Instead of my concern being reaching the city, bringing hope to the community, and adding to the movement of the local Church, I was really only interested in establishing my own pulpit, shucking authority, and fulfilling my own tastes. Now, I've joined God on His mission rather than hoping He joins mine. Remember... Your city doesn't need one more church. It just needs The Church.

I don't approve of sheep-stealing either (in fact I prefer the term "sheep-rustler" to "pirate") but every time that I've seen people leave a bigger church for a smaller start-up church, it's been because there's something just as dysfunctional at the bigger church.

When people leave our ministries, we need to ask how we're not adequately ministering to or discipling them, rather than just blame the rustler for attracting them with shiny distractions. True, a lot of what they're doing is inappropriate, but the level of their success is a symptom of our failing. We need to humbly look at ourselves before God before we condemn our local rustler.

I guess I don't get as upset about this as I used to.

Someone "stole" some people from me once, and then I remembered they were never "my" people to begin with.

No one can "steal" people. They leave on their own, for their own reasons. Same goes for staff.

Theft (or pirating) implies ownership, something we don't get to claim as pastors.

Unethical behavior is wrong in the ministry, period! I do not believe you correct another ministry by starting a church next door. There is a right way to start a church plant and wrong way. Purity of heart will cause you to seek the right way.

RB: "Someone "stole" some people from me once, and then I remembered they were never "my" people to begin with....
**Theft (or pirating) implies ownership, something we don't get to claim as pastors.**"

There you go Ed, here's the response you didn't know you needed.

This thread/issue is now done.

This is disgusting. I have been a part of two church splits, and worked with a startup that failed. All three episodes were complicated to say the least. But a common theme was emphasis on the congregation as an institution rather than on the growth of the people.
Both Young and the pirates he complains about have their priorities reversed. They are using people to build their little empires instead of using congregations as tools to win and build people.
Especially revealing was Young's comparison to the corporate world. When you start a new corporation, you intend to compete with others, and the original corporation knows you are a competitor. Congregations who regard each other as competitors have forgotten what their mission really is.
Perhaps the problem here is that Young shares the same "ownership" attitude that he criticizes in the pirates.

How generalized and simplified can you get? no doubt Ed is speaking from a past experience that hurt, but to the rest of us this just looks like another pirate ship using viral videos to create brand identity as his church model is exported into yet more city centers.

As respectfully as I can put this into words, that video scared me.
No, really, scared me.
I don’t know much of Ed Young Jr or his church, but his rhetoric really gave me a glimpse into the heart of a person who sees the church as a numbers game. To compare church to a corporation is terrifying to begin with, but to then talk about “the lack of loyalty to a church†and to call the church a “place of betrayal†was really out of whack. RB was right when he commented above that a Pastor doesn’t “own†people, God does.

Actually my favorite quote of that whole video scene was “don’t build a church near the church that helped you become who you are.†So much for raising up and sending out leaders in your church. Unless of course they are far enough away geographically?. I can’t believe that in the year 2008 people are still even talking about “Sheep stealing.â€

Oh and a little piece of advice my Mom gave me, if you have to qualify your up coming statements with “I didn’t shoot this video as a personal vendetta†perhaps you should re-look at what you are about to share. If it looks like spite, and it talks like spite, maybe it is just that.

But, as Ed says, I haven’t really lived it out, so he doesn’t want to hear what I have to say anyways…

*insert chuckles from his congregation here*

amen Chris.

Are you kidding me...this is so sad. I thougth we were to be about the expansion of the Kingdom of God. Do whatever it takes. This is not about a peron or a church. I don't think anyone ever waits around for 20 year gathering people so they can go start their own church down the road. I say bless anyone who is called to church planting. If the church is really about raising up and releasing leaders in to the kingdom then what's the problem...

Ed, if I understand you correctly, you are pissed that church planter A is "stealing" "your people, money, etc"?

Get over yourself. It's not about you and "your church" It's about Jesus and His Church. Maybe some of these planters/people have some issues to work out, I don't know. I do know that comparing a church to a business tells me that you DO NOT get it.

Wow Dave! For not knowing Ed or agreeing with his assessment about pirates you sure took out your peg leg and clobberd him over the head while using your hook to gouge out his heart. It is amazing how someone can so drastically miss the point. Because I have had the opportunity to get to know Ed personally I can tell you he is all about people. His love for Christ is a reflection of how driven he is to accomplish the Great Commission. Before you take cheap shots from the cheap seats you might want to check out your motives. Ed, keep doing what your doing. And keep strong in the Lord.

Sadly, those people who think that Ed is talking about ownership are missing the point. Watch the video and listen again. This message is about loyalty and devotion in order to futher a cause rather than derail that cause. It's not about "owning" anything.

Don't hate just because Fellowship Church is big.

Dear Pastor Ed,
I sent your url video to a number of people. Our church just was destroyed in the past few months, and finally had its' last service a month ago. It had been a new church plant (not from a split) 8 years ago. Then 3+ years ago our pastor was found to be unfaithful to his wife, and so he was removed. We got a wonderful new young pastor, who was only given the teaching responsibilities, and the "elders" then took over as almost dictators. Well, this sweet young pastor left recently, to a well established older church, and the "eldership" finally got down to 2 men, and one was bent on everyone following him and his family, or else we were not welcome. Within a few weeks, about 80-85 percent of the church left, including us, because we no longer were welcome because we did not agree to following this person who was strong-arming everyone. Finally, a new church plant took over the building, and we have found a wonderful church in our area (the other church we had gone to for 8 years was a long way from our house). I pray for these "elders" because they were not looking out for the care and feeding of the flock. It is all very difficult, but God has been faithful to help those that were seeking Him and what to do and where to go. It really felt like a wolf was trying to take over. We must love our local church, but we must also remember that it is Jesus we are FOLLOWING! The focus is JESUS and not man or man's agenda! When pride enters into the door, Watch out, because a downfall is following! Follow Jesus 1John 2:6 "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so the walk, even as he walked." Proverbs 30:8 "Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food that is convenient for me:" Love to All in the Name of Jesus Christ!

tim. all i did was say that this is how it appears to me. in my comment i thought i had separated my view from what was possibly(hopefully) ed's view of the situation. please don't just assume my understanding is cheap. truly i don't sit in the close council of Ed Young, but as Elle pointed out above, when Ed himself feels the need to clarify something you shouldn't be suprised at how it may seem to someone totally removed from the situation.

Interesting subject. Thanks CT.com for sharing this topic.

Maybe Mr. Young would be willing to post a comment or another viral video and explain how his church got started? There's a 'pirating' rumor surrounding it.

Either way, I believe the world is better off because Mr. Young built his church. It is unfortunate that pastors feel the need to blast other Godly men for doing what God may have called them to do.

But, let us all consider this, the Pharisees and the Jewish leaders had the same attitude regarding Jesus, "Hey, this Jesus is stealing our staff, our people, our money! - Let's kill him!"

In today's world that means killing a person's reputation so that everyone else is scared to follow them or repeat their so-called pirating ways.

One other thought, if the Church is the House of God, then how can even a hundred people leaving it negatively effect it if God is the one building it? (You might want to write that down.) If it is about loyalty & devotion, then good for them. May their loyalty be solely with God where it should be and not with the pastor!

That's an example of why people leave Church. Who needs another boss! I need God.

As a member of Fellowship Church I can tell you that there is no pastor more Kingdom minded than Ed Young. He's not promoting an ownership agenda of church people nor is he grinding an ax over something that's happened to him. His concern for this subject is really a concern for the Church at large. If you've ever seen someone rise up and do what Ed talks about, you know how ugly it can get and how damaging it is for that local church. Furthermore, the negative vibe given to the Church as a whole in the surrounding community is damaging. Ed is not against church planting or starting new churches. In fact, that's how FC started. What he's against (and rightly so) is using your position within a church to launch something on your own without first seeking the blessing and opinion of those whose leadership you are currently under.

About the Manchurian Pastors who took 20 years to "make their moves"...

Let me get this straight- these guys got on staff @ some big church and stealthily waited 20 years before hatching their nefarious scheme?
Could it be that they found themselves needing to strike out and start something new... but weren't given permission? Could what you call piracy have been a mixture of frustration caused by a number of different things in the original church, failure in the leadership to see apostolic gifting and impulses in emerging leaders, and failure of those emerging leaders to handle their frustration in a non-divisive manner?

There are divisive and non-divisive ways of doing this.

One of my pitches to church planters is this: Come, work your way into leadership in our community, start pastoring people, build a community out of "my" community, and when you, they and us (the elders) feel like it's the right time, we'll bless you and send you off.
Sounds just like Ed's description of Church Pirates, but with a couple of crucial differences...

In our model, we're not only expecting this to happen, but inviting it. And by inviting it, everything becomes above board. No one feels the need to go underground and "sheep steal" when the elders of a community are in fact encouraging them to be people's pastor, to love them, shepherd them and when the time is right, launch out with them.

The real solution is for established leaders to change the way they view emerging leaders and to quit doing leadership in such a way that young men and women feel like they have to wrestle the baton out of the hands of a previous generation just to do what they feel like God is calling them to do, and a permission giving ethos that gives mentoring, a place to grow in leadership and skills and can then ask for (and get) patience out of emerging leaders that might not be as ready as they think.

"Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks"

That goes for Ed, that goes for those commenting on the post. Due to the power of the internet, those whom we would never hear from have a voice and platform to share that voice. It is one of the chores of a Christ follower to carefully watch what comes out of our mouths. Because what comes out of our mouths can defile us. To my understanding this site is here and things are posted to provoke conversation.

Ed may be a wonderful man, and be the pastor of a great church. I don't think anyone said anything about the size of the church, nor did that even way into the conversation. What was debated and evaluated was what was posted on the web to be debated and evaluated.

And to some of us no matter how you slice it, this video is scary and smacks of missing the point...

Unnamed - amen! It's sad when people completely miss the point or try to comment on something that they, admittedly, don't know about. If you're going to attack Ed or Fellowship Church, have the guts to at least know who you are attacking. Tim hits the nail on the head. Ed is all about reaching people for Christ. His heart bleeds for the lost. And he does everything he can to reach as many people as possible. If you don't think so; if you think he is somehow about "owning" people, then you don't know his story. Learn first, then talk. Because you'll be talking a whole different game.

I wonder if Ed's church contacts the former pastors of the people who are coming to his church now...and if his church was built with new converts or transfer growth. That, in my estimation, is not too different than the "pirates" he's talking about.

Another issue that needs to be addressed here is the fact that megachurches often cannabalize (is this the same as piracy?) smaller churches. To be fair, I have no idea if this is the case with Fellowship Church but I wouldn't be surprised if an in-depth study of the growth of their membership revealed a lot of folks who transferred in from another church. There are several church growth experts that lament the fact that "transfer growth" is more the rule than the exception at many megachurches and certainly it has been true in the last three cities I have lived in. In each of these places, I have watched new churches spring up, offer dynamic programs and a charismatic speaker, and almost immediately, Christians from other churches around town begin showing up.

The reality is that we have an entire generation of Christians who have swallowed the "corporate metaphors" offered by many of our church leaders today. And within the corporate paradigm, the people are treated like consumers and the Gospel becomes a product that we package in ever-more creative and innovative and exciting ways. So what I am saying is that it shouldn't surprise us or Ed, for that matter, when folks show little loyalty to the church community. After all, we have taught them that the church exists to meet their needs. When those needs change or their "church experience" grows stale, then we shouldn't be surprised when they move on. We can be sad...just not surprised.

What we need is to take God's mission seriously again, deconstruct our corporate, consumer-driven model for church, and begin deploying God's people as missionaries out in the world.

Andy - no one is accusing Mr. Young of not being a pastor, as in one who is called to love & lead a congregation. There's no doubt he reaches the lost with God's word. Where you're off point is that he's upset (in general) over someone who after years of being in a leadership position at one church takes off along with some of the staff and starts a new 'local' church without the pastor's "blessing." The question is, where's God's blessing on the subject?

I'm sure that happening would hurt a pastor's feelings, it probably feels like betrayal & shakes up the remaining staff leaders. BUT - to demonize such actions is not a moral right given to a pastor from God.

Who is he (in general) to take claim that as a pastor he is owed anything (loyalty or devotion) as if he owns something (the House of God or God's word?) By giving someone a job, an opportunity to work with him he is only doing the work of God. If that person/employee feels it's time to go start a new church down the road and other staff/members choose to follow... that too can be a work of God even if Mr. Young (in general) disagrees.

I come from a town where over the last 30 years the largest church in town has had three major splits. Oddly enough all three splits survived to become very stable and large churches themselves. The joke around town is that the first church has a ministry of birthing churches, which unfortunately it does very painfully, although successfully and even unintentionally. Each split came through a group of people within the church that felt stymied by the leadership of the church. Could this have been avoided? I doubt it.

I know this breaks all the assumptions surrounding church splits, and the 1st church works to varying degrees together with the other churches to do community projects and outreaches within the town. In the meantime they recover from each split and begin to grow again while everyone watches to see what will be birthed next.

Ed!
I notice you are trying to ,a href="http://www.fellowshipchurch.com/overview">raise funds to start a video venue in both Dallas and Fort Worth.

I'm assuming that either you've researched those areas and determined there are NO evangelical churches in the area OR you have committed to building these campuses/video venues completely from new believers uncommitted at any local church.

Right?

Right?

My sense from listening to him is that he sounds genuine but hurt. There is no "one size fits all" answer to this issue. Every situation has it's own answer. I will not assume what his answer is because I don't know the situation.

Sounded like 70 rant, 30 preaching to me.

The intimation that believers are property [that can be stolen] is troublesome at best. I believe the church needs to give up the idea that we are competing for sheep. We need to be about living the gospel and reaching those separated from God.

I couldn't help but notice at Fellowship Church's website the touting of multiple campuses. One has to wonder how many times the church has sent out a new church planter with adequate people and financial resources and a blessing to plant a new church [yes even one right down the street - unless of course FC is the right church for every "potential" believer in that town].

I think any general survey of effective evangelism will more often than not show that new church plants have a greater member to salvation ratio than older, larger and more established churches. And far too many mega churches have been built on transfer growth, a simple rearrangement of the Kingdom.

Perhaps the church wouldn't have such a "pirate" problem if more leaders were more secure and showed greater interest in affirming and empowering other developing leaders instead of viewing them as "potential pirates" of "my sheep".

I believe it grieves the heart of God when the leaders of His body see other believers as the “competitionâ€. May God forgive us of our individualism mindset and by His grace help us to become greater KINGDOM servants.

I agree with Ed's point that traditional seeker style church growth (0-3,000 in two years) is transfer growth. That's no secret. And if the strategy of any church planter is to “move the heard†around then I agree they are not in God’s will. But that doesn’t automatically make a church (pastor) in God’s will if that is not the strategy and it still happens.

However, beyond that, I struggle with the false definition of Church and the message of ownership and entitlement that he talks about. And yes, ownership and entitlement IS the issue that is raised whether one wants to admit it or not. If it wasn't then this would not be a topic at all. If pastors (Ed included) follow the true definition of church that we find in the New Testament, then every church in Dallas, TX is ONE and words like
"betrayal" "pirate" "blessed-subtraction" "lack of loyalty" "lack of commitment" would not be used.

Committed to who a person or to God? Maybe someone is so committed to God they

Of course this debate is only found in the "Come and See" churches and not the "Go and Tell" churches.

I also struggle with his errant language of words like "laymen" which insinuates a hierarchy of Saints which is nowhere in Scripture (the hierarchy and the word laymen).

And then of course the arrogant comments about only wanting to hear from those that “have lived it out. If you haven't lived it out, I really don't want to hear from you." Lived what out? This false sense of “success measurement,†that many church leaders deceived by?

Here is the reality….the pool in which the “come and see†type of churches fish in is the smallest. We are not in a Christian culture anymore like our parents and majority of our population is out of the reach of this style of “church†anyway. So, there is going to be “pirating†and “transfer†because that is who is being attracted. Sadly.

Few experiences in life are more painful than the personal betrayal of a longtime partner or staff member. I have been to Fellowship Church for a preaching conference and heard Ed Young at that time, though I have not met him personally.

I must say this whole discussion seems strangely ironic to me. Churches like Fellowship have typically been built with about 85% transfer growth from other churches. This is not usually intentional. Pastors like Ed Young are sincere and passionate about reaching the unchurched, the lost, but the result is the same. Most of what churches do these days to reach new people ends up just moving believers from church to church, playing to a shallow consumerism that has nothing to do with Kingdom growth.

I am not questioning Ed Young's motives or his desire to reach people for Christ. But his complaint sounds to me like the complaints of Walmart, a mammoth company built by putting the little guys out of business, now complaining about the Targets and Dollar Generals cutting into their bottom line.

Just because the corporate model "works" in terms of numbers and dollars doesn't mean it is a valid, healthy model for building the Church.

Wow - I heard of this German guy who was a pirate in his church and it caused MAJOR divisions in the whole town, and actually in the entire country, and then all of Europe, and altered the entire future course of church history by initiating protestantism.

This makes me think - it's amazing the things God blesses - even from beginnings surrounded in conflict (c.f. Jacob, for one example)

It also makes me think - what if Luther HAD been able to transform the Church from the inside? Where would we be now?

Maybe we wouldn't have pirates.

I have no doubt that Mr. Young is a sincere man. I have no doubt that he wants to reach the lost. That is commendable. I think what most people here are questioning is the fact that he seems to feel some sort of "ownership" of those who are already Christians and attending the building he happens to speak in. They do not belong to him. They are God's children. They can leave whenever they want, and for whatever reason they want. It is a building. It isn't the church. They still belong to "the church" no matter where or even if they attend a building. The other issue I find disturbing is the fact that he obviously feels he is justified in condemning all these other pastors. Maybe they are doing what they are supposed to be doing. Am I supposed to believe God tells Mr. Young what every other pastors motives truly are? Mr. Young may very well be a fine man. That doesn't make him and everything he thinks and says right.

Our church was birthed eight years ago by a church just 30 minutes away. In our eight years as a new church, we have birthed two new churches (each 25 minutes away from us) and one church in Ukraine (10 hours away!). I can honestly say that, as a Pastor, one of the most exciting seasons for our church is giving birth. And just as exciting is watching members of our congregation go to help start a new church that God has birthed (we give an open fishing license to our new planter). The size of our church today is 500 people and after each new birth (with people leaving to help), we have continued to grow. Go God.

I don't pretend to know Ed's heart, but from what I see and hear, I believe his motives to be pure. However, I think what is key in this whole discussion is that we should be focusing more on getting our churches pregnant to expand God's territory, than attacking the illegitimate child - or our pirates.

Just a thought.

Let's keep practicing Ephesians 4:29 everyone!

Wow... there' s a lot of dudes here with a serious vendetta against mega churches! FYI - the tens of thousands of people who have been saved by God CHOOSING to work through Fellowship Church don't care that you don't like Ed's methodology. They'll be in the Heaven you will be, so let's quick being small bitter men about details that don't really matter.

Secondly, most of you are missing the point. Ed's not saying there's anything wrong with churches even being right next door to each other. What he's condemning is PEOPLE who go on staff at a church, form relationships, build influence and then start their own church next door to the very church that gave them a platform for ministry. THAT's what Ed is saying is wrong and he's 100% right.

I'd bet some cold hard cash that most people who have a problem with Ed are either:

Pastors who can't grow their church over 200 people.

Mavericks who can't serve under anyone else's authority.

Cocky, young theologians who run their mouth about how church should be but lack the balls to put their money where their mouth is and start a church themselves (not next door to the church they currently attend).

Bloggers/Monday-morning-quarterbacks who just "happen" to have an issue with every Christian leader who runs a big church.

I don't like Fellowship Church's methodology but I'm at least mature enough to realize that my opinion has no theological basis and is therefore just that - AN OPINION. I thank God for guys like Ed who have raised the churches goals to "excellent" instead of what most of do, which is aim for "average" and then hide behind pathetic theological arguments in an attempt to justify our laziness.

Most of you are missing the whole point of what Ed is saying. What you are missing is the big “L†word the priority of all thing is “LOVE†Love God, Love people!!
Ethics is born out of LOVE. If God has called us to walk a life style of love, and He has. Ed’s take of this type of unethical behavior is; I believe what God’s heart is concerning the topic as well.
When a Pastor (Shepard) cares and loves the sheep that God has entrusted to his care is scattered and separated because of this type of unloving, self-seeking, unethical behavior it is an embarrassment to the phrase “you will know them by their loveâ€.
Going across town or starting a church within reasonable driving distance of a church that you where in a leadership position in is an act of unethical and immoral behavior because of what it does to the families involved who for the most part become collateral damage in the process. This type of behavior is NOT acting in the highest and greatest commandment which is to act and live a life of ‘LOVE.

What a sad, sad message. Surely this gifted, passionate man is big enough to know that the kingdom of God is about more then him and his church. There are enough people in every community for multiple churches.

Yes, he's been hurt and betrayed. Welcome to the world of Jesus--who experienced the greatest of hurts and betrayals when those for whom He came turned on him/ Jesus response in the midst of indescribable agony? "Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing." This is the One whom we follow. No one who assumes the mantle of clergy should ever assume freedom from hurt and betrayal. Our responsibility is to show the world the grace of forgiveness in the process. Our job is to send forth the sweet aroma of generous openhandedness and trust that God does indeed work in very, very mysterious ways and with people whom we ourselves might not choose.

Just an FYI: the locations chosen for the main campus and the four satellite campuses are all in high income areas in the DFW area. And the one I'm closest to, the Grapevine one, has very much pulled people from established churches in the area and hurt many of them in the process. First, I wonder if Rev. Young has heard of the words “treat others in the way you would like to be treated. Second, I wonder if Rev. Young is called just to minister to the wealthy.

I am all for passionate discourse over a controversial subject. However we are all responsible for keeping the discourse focused on the facts.

I think it is important to point out that there was a specific type of individual that Pastor Young was calling a "CHURCH PIRATE".

Direct quotes from blog:

"Those who advertise their disloyalty"

Pastor Ed goes on to talk about such people as betraying their pastor. This is defined in summary as:

People who strategically target others in the Church based on their ability to contribute(physically, financially, etc) to the purpose of starting a new endeavor. Now add to that a vision motivated by slandering the current work being done("a leader who advertises their disloyalty").

I did not conclude from Ed's words that this behavior happened every time there was a Church plant or split but when it does happen it is nothing short of unethical - "CHURCH PIRACY".

Further more, it seems to me, the comments on Ed's comparison of the church and business world has been blown way out of proportion. The comparison was specifically focused on ETHICS. The point is simple. The Church should operate with the highest level of ethics and certainly more than the business world which must be kept in line by laws and the threat of punishment. The comparison ended there. Surely we all agree that the Church should act with higher ethics than the business world. However, I guess if that was true we would not have Church Pirates.

To be fair it is very easy with such a subject to put ourselves into the shoes of one party or the other without stopping to be completely thoughtful about what is being boldly stated.

Let us continue the discourse with the same ethics that Ed is boldly defending.

What a good point Bob Hyatt rasies...hmmm curious to see if anyone can answer that question.

Also nug hit the nail on the head, Ed seems really hurt and seems to be speaking about a specific situation. One of the biggest struggles for those of us in ministry is to make sure that we never use our power and position for our personal vendetta's.

Perhaps this was a situation he should have spoken about *just* to his church, if it was an "in-house" issue that happened in his church family. Placing it on the web seemed like an open invitation to let those he was speaking about hear his opinon. Or maybe waited until the issue wasn't so raw, and evaluate if sending out this message was really the best way to deal with the situation.

Just my take...

Bob-

You obviously didn't take the time to research what's happening at Fellowship Church. Video campuses have been going for several years now. I'm fortunate enough to attend one. People who were driving to Grapevine are now able to stay closer to home and find it easier to invite their friends and neighbors to a church that isn't 45 minutes a way. Not to mention at the downtown campus we've seen young people who never would have set foot inside a "traditional" show up.

Last week well over 100 people gave their lives to Christ at all of FC's campuses because of the way God used Ed's gifts as a communicator. If you insist on criticizing him and the church he leads, at least get all the facts straight.

Well, a lot of the comments here have been different than the ones on Ed's blog where I first commented. But, my comment was edited to remove a few lines, and when I commented again about that both comments were removed.

Let me say this first - I love Ed Young & Fellowship church and think he and the church are great. I totall agree with Ed about this - people should not intentionally go on staff at a church to build a following and then leave to plant with the following, essentially splitting the church.

However, if somebody on staff feels called to plant a church AND the staff/leadershp are on board with that, then that's great.

If somebody on staff resigns because of differences that can not be resolved, AND their motivation and hearts are pure, and they start a church near by and people come, I believe that can go either way. That exact situation is how Andy Stanley started North Point. Most people would agree Andy's heart, motivation and kingdom mindset are all in the right place so that was an example of a tough situation turned good.

It could go the other way I'm sure, and I'd love to hear of a story where a kingdom minded pastor had a staff member leave because of some problem, and the result wasn't good. But, I would like to hear both sides.

Nobody should intentionally use a church and then leave it hurting. But, most churches and leaders need to have a bigger kingdom mindset as well.

I would suggest the main point in this is pretty simple:

Ed is challenging people who have been on staff at a church, who leave that church, who decide to start a new church in the same community, and who then draw many people from their previous church to join them. This is a hard but very good question to wrestle with. I think most (Not all) church plants with this basic dynamic are problematic.

Corporate comparisons, questions about "ownership" and the priority of the kingdom are in this - but what Ed is basically saying is watch out when this type of church planting happens.

I think it is a word worth hearing.

I agree with a lot of what Pastor Ed is saying, but am surprised to hear him saying it.

For example, I agree that is odd and ironic that God always seems to call people to the wealthy and to nice places. But did not expect a pastor who lives in the comfort of a wealthy suburb in Dallas to point that out. When I have seen Fellowhip church shows on television and seen the opulence of the dress and staging, it strikes me odd to hear him on that issue.

And when Fellowship "plants" highly attractional locations within footsteps of other church plants (ones he would call "legitimate"), I wonder why that would not be considered pirating.

We all have blindspots. It painfully ironic to watch them on youtube.

It's really interesting to me that those defending Ed insist on doing two things-
1. Act as though those criticizing these statements and this thinking are attempting to invalidate his entire ministry
2. Play the "God" card.

If Ed has a valid point that "Church Pirates" can't play the God card, let me caution those defending this short-sighted thinking of his from doing the same. The fact that people are getting saved through Fellowship Church is in no way a vindication of each and every hair-brained thing Ed, God-bless-'im, might say.

I think a voice of reason needs to be interspersed among all those above who are completely missing the point. Ed is not saying that starting churches in the same town as another church is wrong. He's not saying that sending people out to start churches is. He's not even saying that churches down the street from one another are wrong.

His point is about loyalty.

A pirate isn't a legitimate church planter. A pirate is someone who signs onto a cause (i.e. works for a church and touts his or her loyalty to that church) and then, without the blessing or direction from that church, leaves to start his or her own church in the same area, thus trying to suck the life out of the first church. But it goes one step further, because many staff members leave churches to start churchs, which Ed says is fine.

The problem is when a staff member, behind everyone's back, works to create his or her own 'kingdom' from that first church. They go around and secretly and maliciously gather people, resources and other staff to leave the first church (again, without blessing) and begin the second church.

Ed knows people leave churches all the time (He's actually said from stage, "If Fellowship isn't for you, then leave because we need your seat.") He doesn't have a problem with people leaving Fellowship(several staff members have left Fellowship to start amazing churches, WITH the church's blessing). He has a problem with disloyalty. And I'm pretty sure God does as well.

And for those of you touting "supposed" statistics about Fellowship, maybe you should research the numbers before you speak. (And I wonder how many of you would say all these things face-to-face with someone).

The percentage of non-believers vs. church transfers is right around 55-45. So don't assume that Fellowship has grown because a bunch of churchy people leave other churches to join. It's simply not the case.

I'm one of those who came to know Jesus Christ while at Fellowship (and I'm proud to say that I'm still there). And it saddens me when so many of you church leaders and pastors are completely missing the point of loyalty. It makes me wonder what else you're missing...

I've been going to the 'family' church on and off since I was a teenager. My grandparents have been going there longer than that, but my Dad didn't take us to church too much. We were the Christmas/Easter kind. When I became an adult I decided to involve myself in this church. I found an even greater family. My faith, devotion, understanding, and relationships all grew. We were gone for a while, and when we came back we found out that one of the Pastor's had started another church in a different county. Some of the people that I cared most about had gone with him. It was a crushing blow at first, and it sent me into a state of confusion. Should I follow also? I still loved and respected our Senior Pastor, my grandfather still went to the home church, and I still had friends there. So I had to go to God with this. He finally led me to realize that the people were not as important as the message. The Pastor who left was a good man, and he probably had a good message, but our church is where I had grown in God. That church had provided my spiritual bread and butter. I had gotten married and brought my husband to the church, and we were raising our son in the same church. Even my Dad started coming! I know that it is just a building filled with people -- that the only thing that matters is God in the building and people, but if you are growing and thriving within your setting, then why leave? The only reason to ever leave a church is if you're not getting God there. That's just my humble opinion.

What most comments are missing is Ed's heart and seem to be drawing conclusions based on what has been heard about Fellowship Church. Upfront - Ed is not talking about something that happened at Fellowship Church.

The satellite locations are very carefully selected to reach people who do not go to church or drive a considerable distance to the main campus. Extensive research is done on the area before deciding to open a satellite location. Each location has it's own personality, people, and uniqueness. One location reaches college students, one is in a very unchurched singles dominant area, one relieves a large percentage of membership from driving over an hour to attend church each weekend. Fellowship does not seek out "wealthy" areas - take a look at the demographics of the locations. While people may draw opinions Fellowship Church is "wealthy" on the outside, come for a weekend to observe and see Christ followers and non-believers from all types of backgrounds. Fellowship is not in the ministry to ask people to join or leave - it is their choice. One thing members and seekers hear often is that "we know Fellowship Church is not the church style everyone likes; if it's not, we encourage you to please find a church that is because it is so important to be involved in a local body of Christ." Fellowship just wants to see people plugged into a local church...period.

So those missing Ed's point, please take some time to research the history of Fellowship Church and how the church came to be and realize that it is not not a church plant. Watch Ed on video and see his passion for people who do not know Christ personally. Call and talk to one the staff...they would love to share the vision Fellowship has for God's Kingdom and reaching people...whether it be Fellowship or another church. Bottom line...every prayer for each church is for everyone in the world to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Great point Hyatt. Pointing out that a teaching, or a situation is wrong, is not indicative of a person's character. It simply points out the flaw. As it was stated previously, because this was posted on the web, and conversation was invited, this situation gets to be discussed and debated.

I don't think anyone here, even those in opposition think that Ed is a bad man, or a bad leader. But sometimes we all make mistakes, and this dangerous "shepparding" teaching is just that. It is dangerous and un-biblical.

This will continue until churches raise up their own leadership from within. Churches that hire hirelings with a degree will eventually reap (John 10), and it won't be good.

I'm not going to hire my son out to some other family, why would you do that in a church?

Ed,
I do not know if all these people that are blasting you have ever even listened to one of your sermons. I listened to you in Cabo and all I know is you care about the lost and thats all that matters.
People need to throw religion and church rules out the window and remember its all about Jesus.
Keep up the good work

ONLY GOD!
Eric

Ed says, "Too many people have joined the movement of a certain church only to later siphon resources (staff, money, etc.) from that church and begin their own work just down the street. RATHER THAN PARTNERING, THEY ARE PILLIAGING." (emphasis mine)

I think this tells a whole lot about what has happened here. The split in this church likely had to do with a falling out among the church leadership, either over power or theology. Thus, rather than a new church plant - supported by members making the move to help - there is obviously rancor among believers. This is nothing new. The apostle Paul seemed to be constantly dealing with the New Testament churchess for simmilar reasons. I have witnessed church splits for wrong reasons and then seen the Lord work anyway, and even more people get saved. It's not that two wrongs make a right but rather that GOD will build HIS church and "...the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Sometimes we need to be reminded that the 'gates of hell' are always trying to prevail against it. I love this Psalm which puts things into proper perspective, "Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who build it, unless the Lord guards the city, the watchman keeps awake in vain." (Ps. 127:1) Sometimes it's a big house and sometimes it's a small house, if itis His it is all good.

This is sad. Methinks that the mega-church-seeker-attractional-let's build a massive empire church has been the one doing the sucking.

But the previous comment said it best. Pastors don't own their people. Pastors don't even own the church. I know, shocking. Did ever occur to Ed Young, that when God is on the move, his people get on the move, especially when religious instiutions have become so inward and narcissistic.

The Spirit of God blows throughout the whole earth and the resurrected Christ moves people to do new work and calls others to join in it.

I remember reading in the Bible that somewhere the church is a people? But gosh darn our ceo-pastor wannabe celebreties keep trying to convince us that the church is an institution we show up to.

Wow. Some of the comments here are really thoughtful, and I can see some valid points being made on both sides. But what struck me the most as I read everyone's thoughts is the trust levels we have with other believers.

In all camps-- mega-church supporters and skeptics, pastors and laypeople, people whose churches have split and that haven't, rich and poor-- practically no one seems to trust the rest of the church.

I think we can respectfully disagree about methods. But what we're discussing here sheds light on a lot more than our methodology. It exposes our insecurities, our prejudices, and ultimately, our poor maintenance of ties with parts of the body quite different from us.

I'm definitely not excluding myself from this! But I think it's fascinating, and saddening, to see the state of things. I don't think the answer is pretending these rifts don't exist or denying our lack of trust in each other. But perhaps as we continue to discuss these things-- maybe even trying to build some positive in-real-life relationships with those we differ from-- we can move toward reconciliation of some sort.

"I'd bet some cold hard cash that most people who have a problem with Ed are either:

Pastors who can't grow their church over 200 people.

Mavericks who can't serve under anyone else's authority.

Cocky, young theologians who run their mouth about how church should be but lack the balls to put their money where their mouth is and start a church themselves (not next door to the church they currently attend).

Bloggers/Monday-morning-quarterbacks who just "happen" to have an issue with every Christian leader who runs a big church."

How true this is! If only the posters here would admit what catagory they fit into they wouldn't miss the point!

The church I grew up in split over the Vietnam war. It was a Unitarian / (one God-no Trinity) Universalist (universal salvation without Christ) church. Fortunately I came to know Christ. Reading these posts threatened my sense of security - hearing shephards argue on such a personal and seemingly judgmental level. It's been a good lesson to realize that shephards (Reverends, Pastors, Ministers, etc.) are not perfect (along with the rest of us), as displayed in some of the comments made here (at least in my perception). And it reinforces the concept that we are one worldwide church, made up of flawed individuals whom we should not place our security in. On a practical level, it bothers me when people speak in defense of Ed Young, saying what he believes, discussing church statistics, etc. etc. I suggest that should be left to Ed Young - please don't speak for him. I'm confident he can speak for himself. Thanks for listening.

It seems that many people are slinging mud and turning Ed's post into nothing more than an opportunity to hear themselves speak. After hearing Ed talk about "pirates" and seeing the responses, people are twisting it to hear what they want.

Ed's discussion was only towards people who are undermining the authority above. God hands out portions and authority differently. In a church the pastor is the authority and any actions being taken under his authority should be made known.

The focus of the blog was to discuss the people who are purposefully working behing the back of their current church, and covertly gathering funds and people. Anyone working stealthly to move members prior to their split is causing a division in The Church, and that is absolutley against all things Jesus preached. Commandment 1 - Love God; commandment 2 - love others. There is nothing loving about creating a congregation within a current congregation and then making your move once you have people on your side.

Ed speaks from experience on how to send out someone with blessings to start a church. Just look at mac Richard of Lake hills Church in Austin. Mac started at fellowship, was given the blessing to go start a church, and then Mac built a successful churchin Austin.

I really like Ed Young. I have heaps of respect for him and have found his ministry to be helpful.

Unfortunately I don't agree with him on this issue. I understand what he is getting at, but here are my concerns...

1. Church attenders are not our clients. They are God's people. They need to do what God wants them to do.

2. Barnabas and Paul split and the kingdom of God was furthered as a result. It might be that God allows differences for the sake of the kingdom.

3. There are no rules in the Bible on this. I don't think we can dictate something that God never bothered to. Adding this in as a rule is adding to scripture, and implies that God got it wrong.

4. I believe no matter what, we should seek to love one another, keep peace with each other, make disciples.

TO BE HONEST, I WONDER IF PEOPLE WHO GET UPSET WITH THIS ARE MORE INTERESTED IN BUILDING A CHURCH THAN THEY ARE IN MAKING DISCIPLES. YES THEY ARE CLOSELY ALLIGNED. BUT OUR MISSION IS TO MAKE DISCIPLES, NOT BUILD A CHURCH

Ed's main point is: if you want to plant a church, blessings on you. Got for it. Just do it in a different town. Don't cannibalize the church which gave you a foothold in that community. There are integrity, ethical, and just plain courtesy issues.

Working in denominational office for 30 years, I've seen this happen a lot. It rarely turns out well for either church.

Staffers frequently feel the need to get into a senior pastor roll, or to spread their wings to fully use their gifts, or to explore a different philosophy of ministry. That's understandable. But don't split a church for your own self-actualization (and justify it with the God Card).

On the other hand:

- As was mentioned, megachurches frequently grow by drawing (not intentionally) people from small churches. People who were, perhaps, frustrated by the lack of progress in the church where they've been working their butt off for years. Megachurches are filled with such people. I was one, once. My departure hurt a small church, but it was best. Nine years later I left that large church to help plant a new church in the same city--WITH their blessing and generous support.
- Megachurches can usually afford to lose at least some people. Fellowship could probably lose hundreds of people and not really feel it. What if they gave their blessing to a pirate church, no matter how disgruntled the departing people are? Even helped fund their piracy? Helped them succeed? Any community can use another thriving church, and it would be a bonus to maintain some semblance of unity in the Body of Christ.
- That said, most smaller churches can't afford a split. And many pirates are just sinners with a following, and shouldn't be supported.

Ed Young makes some great points in his video but is he slipping the noose over his own neck? I've written more about this on my own blog, but here's the highlights.

1. PRO - Young confronts the Protestant disease of schism (or church splitting, if you like).

2. PRO - Loyalty to the local church means something. Those who argue otherwise promote an overspiritualized and individualized Christianity. Christianity is both material/communal and spiritual/individual.

3. PRO - "God told me to do it" isn't an excuse for shredding the mandate (and reality) of Christian unity.

4. PRO - Church plants shouldn't ignore the marginalized. Thank GOD someone said it! Planting in white, middle class suburbia should be balanced with planting around the marginalized.

And the glaring CON in Young's argument...

CON - Is the kettle calling the pot black?
Others have noted this irony. Flashy new church plants (Fellowship Church?) tend to attract a lot of disgruntled Christians from established churches. My feeling (again, just an intuition) is that these shoppers would rather have all things church served them on a platter than invest themselves in reinvigorating the mission of their older established church. In short, I wonder if Young's church is any different than other big new churches who siphon members from other local churches.

By saying this last point, I have no ax to grind. In fact, I think there's a lot of good in what Young's saying. But he may find that his remarks lead to a different sort of self-crucifixion than he imagined. Which is fine since we believe in resurrection, too.

Chris:

I think you should be careful when you use generalizations about groups of people. I would hazard a guess that many people posting on this site and conversing are leaders of churches in access of 200 and are in loving, mutually submissive church relationships.

I am a worship leader and elder of a 4000+ church. What relevance does that really hold to the conversation? Are you suggesting that anyone challenging the thoughts of Ed must be jealous or rebellious?

How sad it is that we can't really discern against a teaching, without it being assumed that person asking questions is doing so from a flawed platform.

Can't people challenge the teaching, and still be respectful, discerning, disciples of Christ? Not Mavericks, jealous Pastors, cocky theologians or arm chair quarter backs?

I still think we are missing the point Mark as to what the video was clearly stating.

1. The analogy was not comparing clients and church members. The analogy was comparing the ETHICS of pastors vs. businessmen. Our ETHICS as pastors should be greater.

2. Barnabas and Paul agreed to disagree. Barnabas did not go negative on Paul and advertise his disloyalty.

3. What do you want the bible to say? God is very clear that we should be faithful to one another and that we should communicate our criticisms to the leader himself not to those who are following him or her with the hope of persuading them to follow our agenda.

4. So now the victim or someone like Ed who is standing up for victims of the disloyalty has become the one who is at fault because they spoke up about it and caused a lack of peace? Is not the behavior of Church Pirates disturbing the peace, love, and discipling taking place in the Church already? Why are we not standing up for the victim of the Pirating and instead protecting the Pirate with the same reasons we should be protecting the Pastor and the Church with?

I DON'T THINK THAT GOD IN HIS BIBLE COULD BE MORE CLEAR THAT HE IS USING PASTORS TO BUILD HIS CHURCH - WHICH IS PEOPLE (DISCIPLES).

What an interesting and helpful discussion! On the one hand are staff and loyalty/leadership issues. Who wants an associate to open shop in your back yard siphoning off members. I've seen it and experienced it. Maybe we ought to do like business and have them sign a non-compete clause. Being in a denomination, we don't allow associates to pull these kinds of shananigans unless they leave the denomination(sometimes we don't do a very good job at it either). In the independent churches you're pretty much on your own. Of course we don't own people, but people are often influenced by leaders with questionable motives.
I think it's good stuff for mega church folks to hear the pain of small church folks who feel siphoned off all the time. They clearly feel like the big churches are a bunch of big pirates. Whether they are right or wrong, their feelings are very real.
My final thoughts are that:What goes round comes round. I pastor a medium sized church. We've had folks leave for the mega church and we've "siphoned" a few away as well. The staff folks who took people from Ed's church will find that a good many of the "siphonee's" will find that the grass is not greener on the other side and go back to the mother church.
Small churches take heart. Gas prices of $4/gallon will probably bring an end to some of the 45 minute drives to the mega church. But you do have to work on quality.
Great discussion! Hope he hits some more of these sensative topics.

It is very disheartening to me to read the caddiness that is being thrown around here. I can only imagine God's distraught as he looks down on us Christians and watches as we allow satan to control the "opinions" of Christ followers.

I thought God commanded us to LOVE ONE ANOTHER as Christ LOVED the church.

My hope is that these negative responses are NOT from leaders within the church. That would be really sad to know that the leaders of the church would model this hateful behavior.

I think we all need to remember that our actions speak louder than our words. Do we really want non-believers to see disharmony within Christianity or more importantly, is this what God intended for us to do???

Bobbie's post makes an interesting point. But to piggie back on that thought - is there actually room for us to have healthy debate as Christians?

If we are brothers and sisters in Christ, then can't we discuss like a family around the dinner table working things out? I understand some of the comments are maybe out of line, but can't we learn to celebrate the diversity and have debates that foster healthy learning and reasoning? Isn't it a PLUS for the kingdom of Christ to have disciples that think, challenge, discuss and chew through ideas like this?

Couldn't an aspect of LOVING ONE ANOTHER be that we are fearless enough to challenge one another?

Perhaps I am biased, but I don't really see "hateful" comments... Sometimes things like tone or body language can be lost through text on a page, but I think most people's opinion's about this topic are ADDING to the conversation and making this site and post linked to and discussed many times over on the internet.

I think the people leaving these hurtful comments should be ashamed of themselves. Is this what Jesus called you to be? Are you going to "straighten" everyone else out. You should read Matthew 7 and get the log out of your own eye first.

To Ed Young: You have absolutely changed my life! I am a full-time pastor and I admire your devotion and PASSION from your pulpit. Please ignore all this negativity and don't let these people sway your passion. If the Apostle Paul had listened to the people around him and allowed them to define his ministry he wouldn't have had one. People will be in HEAVEN because of the work Jesus is doing through you....that alone makes you a SUCCESS!! I have learned so much from you and would love to learn more. I have nothing but love for you and I will start praying for you and protection for your family in the midst of Satan's attack!!

Thank you so much Pastor Ed for sharing your heart on Church Pirating. Wow, finally someone is bold enough to talk about this issue that is so prevalent in the church today.

I grew up in the church as a Pastors Kid and have seen this happen a lot! People who get on church staff and "secretly," "divisively" go behind the Pastors back and talk to people about starting another church in the same city...I will never forget times when certain people in the congregation would come to me and tell me that this particular person who wanted to start another church came to them and asked them if they wanted to be the youth pastor or the worship leader etc. at this church. I will never forget their response to me...That just doesn't seem right.

Isn't it amazing the things you learn from your teachers when you are young. Anyways, I say all this to say...I knew a wonderful lady who was a congressman. She happened to be my Sunday school teacher when I was young. I will never forget what she had instilled in me- protocol and ethics. When I got older I had the opportunity to meet other congressman and go into their offices. She taught me how to enter and how to talk with them. She also taught me loyalty. I wish everyone understood these principles.

I am sure that it hurts the heart of God to know that people divisively go behind Pastors backs and don't understand the principles of ethics.

From my experience you can recognize Church Pirates from these phrases, comments & Situations like:

1. This City is big enough for us to reach people too.
My Response: Then Why Are You Not Reaching those people and trying to FISH out of the same pool??

2. Calling, talking, Recruiting people from the original Church.
My Response: I thought the city was Big enough??

3. They say God just doesn't speak thru authority, but God speaks to them too about leaving a church.
My Response: Of course God Speaks to everyone, but God places authority in our lives to speak to us.

Church Pirating affects so many churches today...Thank you Pastor Ed for speaking out on this topic!

Is this where the conversation bends when the church stops preaching the resurrected Christ? Is this what happens when we forget that the church is God's. Is this what happens when we mistake the gospel of Jesus Christ with building "effective empires" to "save souls"? And name them after ourselves. Is this what happens when we take our cues from Wal-Mart instead of a Galilean rabbi?

Maybe Ed Young Jr. and his Ed Young Ministries is taking a beating because some people perhaps think that the real church is marked by Jesus' teachigns, cross, and resurrection. Not slick techniques.

When I listended to Ed's remarks the second time through it struck me when he began to talk about "trendy" churches as those who "preach the book of revelation" or "the synoptic gospels." Hmmm...methinks that is the opposite of trendy, because it is what the church has always done when it was seeking to be faithful to God in the world.

It's my understanding that trendy churches are the ones who build big arenas, have t.v. programs, and turn everything into a neatly packaged--polished spectacle--with a book that will change your life for 19.99...that stuff looks more like the palace of Herod than the dirt roads of Galilee...

there are so many things wrong on so many levels in this video. it's funny to me. it only speaks to lack of mission. meaning maybe if the mission isnt "to get more converts/people/attendance" you really wouldnt be worrying about this.

ed young, you are off the path. the fact that you compared this whole thing to the corporate world reveals this all the more so. it kind of sounds like ed is dealing with some recent staff issues himself.

it's sad. ed young is so talented, yet he wastes his time on this and promoting bigger and better churches. i'd love to see ed focus on things that matter, such as helping the poor the sick and the helpless around the world.

As a visitor of fellowship for 3 years now every sunday!! I would not be going to church if not for Ed Young, never met him, know nothing about him....what he does works....we are all here discussing god, he made my wife decide to get saved....one more soul not going to hell,the devil must hate Ed Young,Remember Craig's message: ONE ENEMY!! ONE GOAL!!See ya on Sunday!!

Is your concern for yourself or the people being "transplanted"? Honestly all born-again Christians are members of the same church... the concrete structures may be different, but as long as your brothers and sisters are being fed and fellowshipping in a Bible-based church then I think you needn't worry... Sorry I didn't finish watching the whole video.

I think it's ok to be hurt.
This man has a passion for the people.
I enjoy wathing Ed Young Jr. on sattlitetv.
And of course he feels betrayed by the people he has done a lot for and cares about.
But sometimes you have to let people go.
Ed Young should not be afraid, or try to change to hold on to people.
But he needs to understand that maybe God had a plan with this.
Trust.
Never take anything for granted.
And you will get betrayed and you will experience hurts but, you need to think like God.
Always tell them that your door will be open if they need to come back.
Remenber " When God closes a door, he opens a window:)"

Faith -hope and love...but greatest of all is love.
Forgive the people who hurts you or you will be bitter. Is it worth it?.
I know we're only humans, but there is a lot of worse things going on in the world.
Drugs, killings, war ect.
think of it like Noa he tried to get everybody to get in the arch...but people has their own mind.

Happy day to all of you

Oh, by the way I'm from Denmark so if my spelling is'nt ok please excuse me:)

Is it unethical for a person to covertly use their position in a church to gather followers to start a splinter church? Yes.

But it is also unethical to use a pulpit to make such a vague accusation against members of the Body of Christ. Ed Young did not provide one shred of evidence for his accusations. He did not provide any names of people who have done this so that we could check out the other side of the story.

Instead he used name calling and disdain to attack an unspecified group of Christians. This causes division in the body of Christ, as is evidenced by the way his supporters are attacking anyone who questions Ed's opinion or questions his church with name calling and disdain.

In Christ, Michael

There's all kinds of things here. If someone is in a church for 20 years - I'd say that in itself proves their loyalty.

Sure somewhere along the way something got turned sideways. There's two sides to every story. Ed's told the pastor's side - I'd love to hear the other side.

If elders or other leaders cower under a pastor's authority - are afraid of him/her - or see their only way "up" as when the leader dies - then a lot of nasty things are going to be happening behind the scenes. If that's the case - a mirror might be the best place to start looking for the real culprit.

Since there seems to be a great tendency of Mega churches comparing themselves to corporations - let me tell you how corporations really work. When something goes terribly wrong - the top guy loses his job. The buck stops at the top - not somewhere in the middle. In real business - people don't get thrown in jail for outmaneuvering the competition - they get promoted. Every day someone leaves a company - to start a better one themselves. Some do real well - others fail totally.

Someday - we're going to figure out that we're not in competition with one another - and that the Dallas Metro area has 5,000,000 + people - and that Fellowship church has reached less than .5% of that population.

But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. (Not too many preachers preaching this verse!)

We recently had an issue where a leader was confronted for their sin, instead of confessing that sin and repenting she turned it on me. I was now the "bad guy" the sinful one, and all I did was point out how unscriptural her actions were. Well, needless to say she left, but not before taking a parting shot at me and my family.

The good part is that the majority of the church could tell by what this person had said about us that it was untrue. The sad part is this person was youth leader and the kids in our church chose to believe her. Our youth group has dwindled to 4.

I believe this is another form of church piracy, plundering the people when you seek to cover up sin. My heart hurts for the body that seeks to destroy itself for personal gain.

The string has been interesting. What I find interesting is that if folks are having to go in stealth to birth a church that shows yes an ethical problem within the planter. However, it also shows a huge cultural problem with the leadership team. If this is repeatedly happening and the mother church is still in growth mode then the church is doing its job to prepare leaders to go off and start churches.
At some point, if not simply because of scale and distance from core city neighborhoods there is an increasing need to birth new churches. For no other reason than fuel this is going to become of a greater necessity. For an institution to deny this will lead to additional internal issues. Instead take advantage of the new ministry. Support it. Denominationalize it. But you are never going to squelch it without changing the DNA of the original ministry and tearing apart the very thing that made it successful.

"This causes division in the body of
Christ, as is evidenced by the way his
supporters are attacking anyone who
questions Ed's opinion or questions
his church with name calling and
disdain."

I think people standing up for Ed are only doing so because they know more of the full story behind Ed and Fellowship. There are a lot of assumptions behind some of the accusations that are being directed to him and "his" church...some of them very hurtful comments. If you truly knew more about him than what you see from a distance, or from a seven minute video clip, you would know why people are defending him and the church.

Can people disagree? Absolutely. Just be careful in taking punch shots at a man of God based on assumptions and not facts.

I am a Pastor and have been for 28 years. I have planted two churches and am Senior Pastor of the second one that I planted. Without getting into all the details. Thank you Pastor Ed. I agree with you whole heartedly.

When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise.

Some of us may do well to stay out of such a conversation. Yet, there are many here who seem to have no intention of speaking wisdom.

There is a very good point here about spiritual covering. There are so many walmart type cuhrches in our cities, that when people get mad our disagree with the pastor, it is easy to go to another big church around the corner. John Bevere does a great series about spiritual authority. I think it i snot talked about enought today. It is hard to equip people to reach the lost, when they won't submit to the authority God has [placed over them, which is the senior pastor. We can do alot more for the Kingdom whe we all desire to be armorbearers, and not solo warriors. I am not a senior pastor by the way, I am on staff though.

Some things never change... this has been done before in the early Church... maybe we should remember the lessons of the past. It is indicative of pastors who want power and a name and fame and all the other vainglorious things they preach against each sunday. I am in a community where there are multiple 'small' evangelical churches competing for resources, funding, advertising space in the local paper, you name it. Were we to band together 'as one' imagine what could be done for the glory of God! Woe unto the sheperds that scatter my flock...

I find Pastor Young's comments a bit disturbing. I think there is a lot wrong with pastors who use terms like "stealing sheep" to refer to other Christians. Isn't the real sheep stealer God's enemy? Why do pastors feel such ownership? Is it for their own ego or job security, or are they really concerned for the well-being of the sheep they refer to?

Ed, I completely agree with you on this. Our church is active in two associations and I serve on both of the new church start teams in those associations. It never ceases to amaze me at some of the requests we have for funding to start a church in the middle of a community that is already bursting at the seams with evangelicial, like faith even same denomination churches.

Recently I heard from a "church planter" who is considering planting a church in a YMCA where there are already two other churches that meet. One on Sat. evening, one on Sun. morning and the new one considering Sun. evening. All of their services look very similar, two are in the same denomination and association and the third has the same denominational roots.

I personally feel that the root of the problem in this and the pirate situation for most people is pride and or arrogance. They feel they can do it better than anyone else who is doing the same thing. Realistically if each of these groups had 70 faithful people, couldn't they accomplish so much more if together they combined to 200+?

Kingdom work simply is not accomplished through competition. At some point it has to be about more than just us and have real cooperation.

I agree with Ed. It's not a matter of "my" people; it's a matter of helping people back away from a meaningful ministry. I've seen too many who never grow deeper than 4 years at a time. When the pastor knows you too well, or you are challenged to tithe, or you are being led to a deeper commitment, you can always find someone "at the church down the street" who will help you avoid that growth. The people who are "trans"planted -- not planted -- don't have growth as a believer. They usually have only put in the years without putting in the effort.

Ed Young continually speaks about the parallel in the corporate world. And he's right! The people of "pirates" is ethically debasing to the profession of the ministry. It speaks of emotional immaturity on the part of the pirate, and personal pain inflicted on the pastor who was betrayed. Such betrayal does not belong in the ministry -- and should not be held up as a example of maturity to believers who are lacking maturity.

This is not about numbers. This is not about "our" people. This is about integrity.

Yes, Ed, I've been there, done that, bought the tee shirt. And while you may get lamblasted by some, there are those of us out there who know -- experientially -- what you're talking about. And you're right!

Thank you, Ed Young, for bringing the problem of church pirates to the light. I suspect that those who criticize have not seen their church nurseries empty from one week to the next, haven't seen their leaders and teachers pillaged and their offerings ransacked. Some of us have lived that. And why? It wasn't theological, like Luther. (And to equate Luther with a church pirate is totally misunderstanding the situation.) It wasn't because older leadership was entrenched and immovable. It was because a staff member had a sinful, self-serving approach to ministry with verifiable offenses in handling money and not being accountable. When the elders rightfully reined him in, he used his persuasive abilities and considerable control skills to misrepresent the situation, make himself look good and the elders bad, and lead away the younger families that he had the most rapport with, to start a new church whose chief characteristic was that it was not like the church they had left. Now that's a church pirate! In a year or two, the new church was about to go under because the "pirate leader" was still the same flawed and sinful person that he had been in the old church. To survive, the new church merged with another new church in town (with a similar history) and both of them went down together. Neither of the "new" churches exists anymore and some of the members that left our church have now come back. We're not talking about church planting, or church innovation, as many respondents incorrectly assumed. We're talking about parasitic growth--starting a church with resources pillaged from within a good church. Starting a church from the outside and drawing away people from an existing church may be a problem, but it is a different problem than church pirating. Thanks again, Ed, for a good word.

I remember joining a church who had been thru a church split. All the remaining members were very hurt and deeply wounded in addition to the pastor. It is not a good thing.

It seems Pastors and "control owners" of a church, blame those that are leaving. Did you ever think that the people leaving are discerning that it is time for them to go? I am presently on staff at a church so I know the staff side, and I have also been part of a group that left a church because of an abusive pastor. Often times many long time people in the church think the Pastor is next to God and can do no wrong, so do not listen as you take forward the message of abuse of women. They just cannot believe a pastor can do such a thing. We were blamed for everything but the kitchen sink.They called us church hoppers, etc. Not once did they look at themselves and wonder what they can do different. Our leaving was VERY difficult and we prayed for a long time before we left. Shortly after our family left, numerous other people left too. We can't control people who want to leave, they are adults.

I am saddened to read these posts. It's grieves me. Where has civility gone? Worse yet, are there no spell-checkers? Don't people have the time to hit a shift key? Are we too busy to proof-read? What are they teaching in schools these days? Jack would shake his head and sigh...

Since most of the churches Ed Young is talking about are structured like the American corporate business model, it should hardly be a surprise that a church insider may have the ambition to leave and start his own "church" with himself in charge. In the "dog-eat-dog" world of American business this is commonplace, although, as Ed suggests, there are some legal restrictions which exert some constraints on just what can be done.

Pious-sounding talk about pirates pillaging a church hardly conceals the empire-building mentality so common in the pastoral world. Consider, for example, how often pastors refer to "my flock", thereby betraying their own viewpoint--a viewpoint so different from the one flock of the Good Shepherd. Isn't it high time we return to the model of the apostolic church, the one church which Christ is building? Let's junk the pastor-laity model which was hurriedly cobbled together in the early days of the Reformation to replace the obvious abuses of the priest-parish model of that day.

As I reflect on this post, i seem to remember Paul being perplexed over people trying to steal sheep in both Galatia and Corinth...he was perplexed over people being pulled away from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ by people he called Super Apostles who claimed to have greater knowledge than Paul, and he went defending his position as spiritual father to these churches...to Galatia he is very strong in warning them not to fall back into worldy thinking, but to use their freedom in Christ to love one another rather than bite and devour one another...
Perhaps a good test for all of us, to discern whether we are truly Kingdom minded (God's, not ours) or not would be to ask if we could honestly sit with pastors of churches around ours (who hold to foundational theological positions) and pray earnestly and honestly with them about their work; could we celebrate their victories, when we cannot see our own...could we confront our brothers, and be confronted, not because of underlying competativeness, but because we genuinely care for them and God's work in their lives and God's glory on display in our community...could we work with them in endevours to transform the community and lend one another gifts that we have an abundance of in our church. One thing i know is that we are called to be one, not in methodology but certainly in kingdom building because there only is one true kingdom worth building...His alone...Let's be about His Work, His Kingdom, His Fame

When "pirating" happens, it is typically due to leadership of the "captain". This leadership might be amazing or less than, but what happens is folks follow who they will follow.
This leadership is evident in WHO they hire, WHO they empower, and yes, WHO they feel threatened by.
If the Captain is being faithful and folks leave, it is about the folks who leave, not the captain.

Now with respect to the "Pirates". They become pirates for one of two reasons. The first is they will come, being invited in by the captain, being empowered by the captain, and pick the first fruits through guile and deceit. They will harvest what someone else sowed. Shame on the them and the foundation they are building upon will not last, because they built upon sand. Blah , blah, blah. But sometimes the pirates are a part of more of a mutiny than anything else. A divided body will never stand together, so divide and conquer, but do so in the name of Christ, not in the name of the id or the ego.

How do you deal with it all? I say through communications. Listen to the hopes and dreams of the your staff. Empower them to follow their call. Help them. Share dreams together, work through nightmare together. Check your egos at teh door and be real people called by God to SERVE, even your staff.
Build up your congregation as well. Empower them and enable them to follow their calls to be Christians. God may be calling them to serve, but as a captain, you may miss what they are saying, what God is saying to them. Build relationships with your congregation. If your church is too big for you to do that, maybe God is sending liberators, not pirates into your midst.

Finally, let me add, make sure you don't just miss their contribution to the budget when they leave, miss their heart and their soul. Miss their leadership, their faithfulness, not their influence.

And as a post script, which I have seen, when disgruntled people leave a church to be a part of a new church, they tend to start a church filled with disgruntled people.

We have had some serious issues at times at the church where I am a member of both the board and the clergy. Some disagreements on trivial matters, some large issues that still cause conflict. At one point several leaders of the church contemplated leaving the church because it was dying, not progressing and even considered starting their own. I was one of those who considered flight. One of the other clergy members and I discussed it and while things are definitely in need of serious improvement, revitalization or whatever - we determined that leaving in such a way would be for the wrong motives and our new church would not be blessed by God. It is still a struggle, and we may have to watch this church die and create a new one from the ashes - much like the phoenix - but we believe our calling is to serve in the community our church is located in. We can fight to change things, we can give up or we can desert the church. Which one do you think God is going to bless?

While we can parse the ownership language, it is undeniable that such "piracy" can destroy a church or at least cripple it. We can shy away from talk about money and call it a worldly concern but when a huge chunk of a congregation leaves, the money that has been maintaining facilities, staff, and programs goes with them. It's the reality of church. As for those who say the "original" church deserves to fail if it can't hang onto those people: You say they must not be providing what the "customers" need. Sounds like a business attitude to me.

WOW!!! Often as leaders we forget that we are justing being used by God for God's purpose. When in God's will and way who cares if others go somewhere else and worship as long as they are being taught the Word of God, building lasting life-changing relationship with Christ, etc.

If God has given vision to leader to start a church, then God makes provision for that fellowship. If congregants go to another church, if the Pastor has done his job in teaching, then that congregant will pray and be led of God for their actions. Guess what God keeps his promise and sends others to be raised up, fed, matured, etc. This video sounds like a person that has experience hurt and has not moved into forgiveness. Often when God allows things to happen, its not always to our preferred way. As follows of Christ, since when does our perference count? God allows us to be hurt, disappointed and angry, but he requires forgiveness. Forgiveness is required to make it into heaven. Pastor Ed, heal and forgive and God will make provision.

The Church today is a business so there's nothing wrong with this pastor speaking of it in those terms. In fact it's a very unique business - one where the employees actually pay to go to work and often are asked and volunteer to do more work than is in their job description.

And we even have class distinctions between the professionals and the laity. Forget that nonsense about the priesthood of all believers.

We are told to disciple by people who don't have the time to disciple people themselves. We are told to tithe by people whose tithe goes back into their own salary. We are told to remain "faithful" by people who leave for better positions, pay and benefits and naturally because God has so moved them. When a pastor leaves what do we do? We form a search committee to find a replacement often pirating them from another congregation. We don't consider the minister to have failed because they didn't train up a replacement from the congregation.

The thing we have now is a far cry from what Yeshua and Sha'ul left behind. But don't tell that to your pastor - if they're like Ed they don't want to hear from you.

Speaking as a former pastor myself:

SHEEP GO WHERE THE GRASS IS. Get over it.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that we don't own anybody.

Rather than trying to control people, why don't we take responsibility for our part in causing people to leave? They would not have left if there was not a good reason that perhaps we are in denial about and are failing to address.

It's too easy for us to blame somebody and accuse them for our own mistakes. I think some senior pastors are too afraid to admit when they have made mistakes, because they think they are God.

The fact is that God and this world are big enough for multiple ministries. We are not competing against each other, and if we think our success is in numbers, then we are only trying to glorify ourselves! We need to check OUR motivations when we complain about so-called siphoners.

Jerry: Perhaps you were right about pointing out sin, but perhaps you were wrong in the way you did it. Is it possible to admit that you made a mistake? I doubt that many people would leave and agree with your youth leader if there wasn't some shred of truth to her side. Quit blaming others.

Jack: Don't silence views because you don't like it or it is threatening.

Excellent post Rev. Young.My only concern is that you have to leave room for one exception... the pastor goes into some sort of doctrinal heresy in which after the leadership/congregation tries to correct him he refuses to stop teaching heresy. Then a split is order. And even in that case it should be based on family not trying to get people to leave.

Ah, is it always the fault of the "staff member" when things go awry in a local church? I have never seen a situation/split caused by a staff member. On the other hand, I can give numerous accounts where a pastor has been guilty of "piracy" of church membership. In each case, the pastor couldn't "buck" the deacons/board, got mad, pulled out some members and started another church "down the road."

I find it offensive and unprofessional for pastors to suspect (distrust) a staff member of going behind his back. This attitude simply exemplifies a weak ego. If a pastor is afraid his staff is going to steal the members, then he is not doing his job as pastor/shepard. In God's work of "building up the church," there is no room for ego or petty jealousies. People are not led to loyalty to the person behind the pulpit, but to Christ and his church. Yes, pastors can get in the way of God's spirit working in a congregation.

Okay, this is my second post here but for good reason. I don't think most of the people who have posted here in opposition to Pastor Youngs message really understand how church planting works.

Generally someone who has a desire to start a church will make a request of multiple organizations for funding. These would hopefully begin with a sponsoring church, local association, state convention, national mission organization, mission minded individuals and of course other churches.

As a Pastor, I see these requests all of the time. We are to be good stewards with what we have and most of us don't have much. However when these requests don't produce the results that said minister desires the have to look elsewhere or lower their standards. That usually (in my experience) means finding people who you can "draw" to what you are doing away from where they are.

This is pirating as Ed puts it. Apparently some skip the steps I listed and move right to building their kingdom where they are then splitting off. Inevitably when things get tight financially they come back to all of the sources listed above and prove to be a greater burden on everyone else.

This type of "church planting" is not planting at all. It is not healthy for the body of Christ.

No one would be in jail unless there is a nondisclosure agreement. Give me a break!

Also, where did Fellowship get its members??? I'll bet ya from all the other churches over in Irving/Las Colinas area.

The God card??? Probably is played most of the time... but what if its not? DO all church plants need to meet Ed's criteria?

Ed,

I believe that pastors who have not experienced this phenomenon do not understand the implications you are referring to in your video. Many pastors do not extend grace or understanding to fellow pastors who have experienced this tragedy in their church. They lay blame at the pastor's feet without questioning the motives of the pirate or their unethical behavior (not to mention their lack of Christian responsibility).

The difficulty Ed is many pastors have not experienced this tragedy themselves and therefore assume it’s the pastor's fault. They are very wrong! In a study done in 2004 by Christianity Today indicates that 85 percent of all church conflict involves control issues. The second most common source of conflict is related to vision for the church. Other key areas of conflict include leadership changes, the pastor’s style, and financial issues.

The key question to ask is, who is in control of the church?

Thank you so much for posting this. I'm a pastor's wife, and we've spent the past two years living through this. It literally almost killed me. Some of our best and oldest friends (and my husband's ministry partner) pirated our church during a health crisis with one of our children and during a super-hectic season of ministry transition. Let me be clear, we NEVER, EVER mind if our members go to another solid body where they will grow. However, the process used in this plant was unethical start to finish. There was lying. There was manipulation. There was undermining. Instead of seeking Biblical guidance from solid, older Christian leaders in our bodies, these fellas did whatever they wanted and justified all their actions by saying God told them to do it. Meanwhile, they have continued to recruit active members of good, healthy Bible churches by speaking ill of other bodies, and they have published harsh critiques of our ministry style online. One of the fastest-growing church planting networks embraced these people, without even researching their former churches. The goal of that network is to plant 1000 new churches. Wow. At all costs? We've seen what that looks like first hand. As a pastoral family, God gives us a protective (maternal/paternal) feeling about the people in our body. We don't feel like we own them. But we do love them and want them to be cared for by good leaders. It's heartbreaking knowing they are caught up in the ego and selfishness of a move like this. I really wish you would write a book exposing the difference between piracy and planting.

I'm not a pastor---so ignore me if a poor layman couldn't possibly contribute meaningful perspective to this discussion.

1 - I refuse to be classified as a 'resource' in my local church. I am a follower of Christ depending on the same Holy Spirit to direct my paths as do the vocational ministers who serve as my pastors. We are all bondservants to Christ, lay and professional ministers alike, and loyalty is owed singularly to Christ. Pastors and all other 'offices' of the Body owe love to one another, out of shared loyalty to Christ and His teachings.

2 - Undershepherds labor under the authority of The Shepherd, caring for His sheep. The only "my" that should be used in the context of pastors and flocks is "Feed MY sheep"

3 - Calling other believers "pirates" reveals as much about the speaker's motives and hurts as the offenders being described. "They" build their little "kingdoms" is another example of language that reveals a misguided perception of ownership and authority in God's Kingdom.

4 - I would like to hear more of the "I plant and Apollos waters" spirit of church leadership here.

5 - God raises up and castes down. It's up to him to decide how and when to bless any one person's efforts.

6 - "Bless those that despitefully use you" would be a great video to make next time. Doesn't justify those incidents when malice was truly involved--but it would model Christ's love to those who remained in this particular fold.

Feeling hurt and betrayed in your service to Christ? "Consider it all joy brethern..." but it seems that response to betrayal doesn't play well in today's victimhood society.

This whole conversation needs to end. It is divisive!

Mark Twain once said the more things change the more things stay the same. A study of Church history will prove it. I agree with Pastor Young. I am a pastor in a city with so many church plants that it gets confusing. This church issue hurt the new converts the most... It also leaves a bad taste in the church. It hurts when you build into a person's life anticipating loyalty and commitment and they leave for the "flavor of the month". If your church is small it stays small because they leave to go to larger churches. The larger churches in my community have grown due to transplanted christians. The Church as a whole needs to repent starting from the altar to the pew...

I have seen this activity in a church but never identified it as "pirating" until now. Instead of starting a church down the street, the staff member staged a takeover of the church and ousted the pastor. He gathered a lot of political clout and popularity, took over the church, and has molded it to his image and style. It was done in such a clever manner that most of his "followers" didn't even realize what really happened. This article and video rang so true to me and it is a disgrace to the church of God when this type of thing happens.

Going through most the comments, I discovered most of the people doesnt seem to understand Ed's position on this issue. We need to address the picture he painted if there is going to be any change in our community. In Ireland where I lived, things have gone bad that church business seem to be the short cut to prominence. There were time I wonder what sort of warped mentality some brethren have to be coarsed to believing these make shift and superflous sherpperds. It's good that we have people like him sensitising us. If you are offended by his message, that meant you are one of the many pirates he was talking about. If I may ask, how did you get to where you are now? It's better you repent rather than justifying yourself. Bye-bye.

They are Pirates because they destroy the kingdom! When God calls a person to plant it's not at the Expense of another church. Get over the Ed bashing. He's simply calling out the unhealthy leaders. If God calls a person to plant He will bring the people to follow - a planter doesn't need to hijack people from another church. That's Ed's point in my opinion.

Wow, I can't believe how so many can miss the point he was making. It wasn't about the sheep stealing it was about disloyalty and betrayal from within the ranks. From those that he had taught, loved, ministered to, etc... and how quickly and easily they turn on you. My personal experience is very similar and the statement of those that you are closest to are bite the hardest.

a few years ago I was part of a church plant, after recieving a prophetic word and believing God was sending me to help the Assistant Pastors establish a new church. I didn't realize the hurt that it caused my original church as there was strife that I didn't know much about at the time and I did have some issues of my own, although I believed that they were not the reason why I left. People followed us, I worked hard to establish a vital ministry within the church, two and one half years later, feeling homesick and burned out, I decided to return to my old church. I do understand what Ed is saying and agree, although we didn't realize the scope of the damage caused- people get insecure and start focusing on man and his flaws, I am sad to have hurt the original church and the Pastors, but I also know that all things work together for good for those who love the Lord- even our mistakes, I am wiser now and so glad to be back home

As a pastor I am glad that he spoke up for the Church God has called him to lead. My church is under 200! God Himself adds to the Church those who are being saved. Don't judge Ed until you have walked in his shoes.

First, you cannot "steal" people as they are not objects that you can posses without their permission. They have their own will and mind. Secondly, if your church is that strong or "good" who would want to leave in the first place? This calls for humble evaluation, and not to "think too highly of yourself that one should" Lastly, the church really belongs to Jesus, and if God decides to bless the so called pirates, then accept it as a rebuke for not pastoring your people well in the first place

I live in Salt Lake City. I disagree with Mormon theology, but this is one topic on which they have us whipped cold. They have a term called "Priestcraft" and they use it negatively. In general, it is to refer to anyone who preaches the gospel for money, but they also use it to warn themselves against building themselves up to desire the spotlight.

In their churches, volunteer leadership changes every few years at the church level. In my neighborhood, there have already been two Bishops (Pastors) at our local ward. Someone who is responsible within the church is selected to Sheppard the church. Within three years, he will step down and someone else is raised up.

I think it is a model we can learn from. How else will we every get away from our model of pastor as celebrity?

Ed, thanks for your honesty. I have been in the pastoral ministry for 33 years.You name it I've seen it, nothing surprises me any more! Neither did the comments on your blog from one extreme to another! My experience has been 'what goes round, comes round!" I think that Paul put it better than I do, something abou