Terry introduced Mark by mentioning his currently available books, all of which he highly recommended. You can buy these from the Newfrontiers resources page. It was nice to see my pastor, Tope Koleoso, on the stage praying for Mark just before he began preaching. It was interesting that just a couple of weeks ago Tope also spoke on being missional in a talk that was impacting to me.

In case anyone hasn’t been reading blogs for the past two years, Mark Driscoll founded Mars Hill Church in Seattle in 1996. It has grown to over 6,000 people. He co-founded and is President of the Acts 29 Church Planting Network, which has planted over 100 churches in the USA and internationally. Most recently he founded and leads the Resurgence Missional Theology Co-operative. The Church Report has recognized Mark as the 22nd most influential pastor in America. His sermons are downloaded more than a million times a year. Mark is married to Grace and they enjoy raising their three sons and two daughters.

Driscoll began by speaking of being brought up in a nominal Catholic family. Then his mother was saved in the Catholic charismatic movement, so spoke in tongues to Mary! Later on he started going out with a pastor’s daughter, and as a result became a Christian. He explained, “If you are a Calvinist, God saved me; if you are an Arminian, I gave my life to the Lord.†He then spoke about how God audibly spoke to him, “Marry the woman, plant churches, preach the Bible, and train men.â€

He explained that in Seattle there are more dogs than kids. Now eleven years into having started Mars Hill Church, they are in the top thirty fastest growing churches in the USA, are seeing many saved, and run a multi-campus church with seventeen services in seven locations. He plans to stay in Seattle for the rest of his life.

Driscoll then humbly explained that he feels that through being here he wants to learn from us in Newfrontiers. He is appreciative of the love for the Spirit and a passion for worship he has seen here. He was not afraid to boldly state that he is also here to serve and build on our movement and contribute something to us. He stated up front that he felt that the particular thing he could contribute was to help us to become more precise as missionaries. I found that phrase to be an intriguing one, but he didn't explain it immediately.

Rather, he began to explain that while he himself clearly holds a charismatic theology and prays for the sick and demonized, he has a number of concerns about charismatics in general. He has often described himself as a “charismatic with a seat belt.â€

Having looked at charismatic movements, he listed five problems he has with them, and boldly stated that he believed that we in Newfrontiers have avoided four of the five. He warned us to brace ourselves because some friendly words of rebuke were coming. At that point you certainly wanted to pay attention, and as he listed his “problemsâ€â€”as nice as it was that as he explained them, he told us he thought we were okay on them—we braced ourselves for the blows we knew were coming!

MARK DRISCOLL’S PROBLEMS WITH CHARISMATICS

Sometimes charismatics focus on the wrong person. The Spirit’s objective is to teach us to love Jesus. He feels from his observation of Newfrontiers that we as a movement have avoided this common error of an over-focus on the Spirit to the exclusion of Jesus.

Sometimes charismatics focus on the wrong event. He explained that for many charismatics, Pentecost is their primary focus. But Pentecost was not the primary moment—it pointed back to the death and resurrection of Jesus. The cross was not just the prelude to the so-called “main event†of the coming of the Spirit. You only rightly appreciate Pentecost when you see it as the application of the cross. Driscoll also believed we in Newfrontiers have avoided that error and are cross-centered.

Some who love the Spirit have been corrupted by the view that it is all about prosperity. Driscoll commended Newfrontiers for being a Bible-loving people, and that we have not given way to the “health and wealth†teaching. Driscoll’s big problem with such “word of faith†teaching is that it basically says if you have enough faith in Jesus you will not be like him. He was poor and suffering! Some say all Christians should be rich and healthy!

Sometimes charismatics focus on the wrong person as the definition of what it is to be Spirit-filled and Spirit-led. As a result, charismatic leaders are often held up as an example to follow. The person gets lifted up. What Driscoll appreciates about Terry Virgo is that he lifts up Jesus. As Mark would go on to explain, it is in the life of Jesus that we find the perfect example of how to be filled with the Spirit, not in some leader.

Sometimes charismatics are insufficiently missional. He feels this is a big danger, especially if the charismatic is wedded to reformed theology. The danger is that we can begin to say, “It’s all up to God.†I thought here about people who do nothing about sharing the gospel, but instead just wait for revival. This is the one he feels that we in Newfrontiers may not have completely avoided. We are committed to mission, but not quite. Almost hit the bull’s eye, but not quite. He did not mean this as a criticism, but as a help to make us better. We have planted a lot of churches, but we should be moving even more quickly. We should be planting more. We should be giving more money. What is lacking sometimes is how we connect to culture and reach out to cultures and plant churches.

ROLES OF THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE BOOKS OF LUKE AND ACTS

Mark made a strong case for Luke and Acts being a joint work which focuses on the work of the Spirit in the life of Christ and then in the Christian. It is striking how many times Luke reports on the work of the Spirit.

The structure behind Driscoll’s talk was to point out all the different things that the Holy Spirit does.

The Spirit fills people.
Luke 1 — “filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb.â€
We are to be filled with the Spirit also, and to love the Spirit.

Spirit-filled ministry includes miracles.
The angel said to Mary, “The Holy Spirit will overshadow . . .†A virgin gives birth. The Spirit prepares the coming of Jesus, works in the ministry of Jesus, and continues to work in the Church.

Spirit-filled ministry includes prayer.
When Mary met Elizabeth it says that her baby was filled with the Spirit. “The baby leaped for joy.†Elizabeth then prays gratefully, and also blesses Mary.

Spirit-filled ministry includes prophecy.
Zechariah was Spirit-filled and prophesied. Later, when the shepherds were in the fields and the angel came, they were filled with fear, and good news came. The news was revealed to them. Here is a Savior, Christ the Lord—which actually means one who is anointed by God the Holy Spirit. When Jesus was brought to the temple as a baby, more prophetic revelation came.

One of the ministries of Jesus is to baptize us with the Holy Spirit and fire for mission.
Luke 3:15 — “Baptize with the Holy Spirit.†There was also a division that came. Jesus inspires wonder and worship and also opposition. When the Spirit is in your midst, there is conflict and division. There are seasons of conflict. People get blown away.

At Jesus’ baptism the heavens opened and the Spirit descended on him like a dove. This is one of the clearest pictures of the Trinity in the entire Bible. God speaks from heaven to his Son, and the Spirit comes visibly and publicly. There is a clear demonstration to the public that the Spirit had anointed him. In Acts, the Spirit descends on the Church publicly to anoint the Church in much the same way as he anointed Jesus.

BUT . . .WHY WOULD JESUS NEED ANOINTING?

We must remember how Jesus came. He came in carnal flesh! In meat. The omnipresent came to a place. He who was without beginning and end was born of a woman. Great debate about how we are to see Jesus. Hypostatic union — Jesus one person, two natures — fully God, fully man. He did what only God could do.

God doesn't grow and learn, but as a man Jesus did grow and learn. The God who doesn't change changed physically. How could God become a man? Jesus didn't lose or dilute his divinity. Rather he added to it his humanity.

Christians tend to see Jesus as a little more human or a little more divine. The first are liberals. The second don't believe that Jesus was really tempted, or that he truly suffered. Jesus was like Superman, they say — like a Galilean peasant on the outside, but on the inside indestructible.

How did Jesus live his life? How did he resist sin? How did he love his enemies? How did he live for three years with Judas Iscariot? How did Jesus go to the cross and say, “Father forgive them�

Some just say he was God. But Jesus was and is fully God, and while on the earth he was indeed still fully God. But he didn't live a life that we cannot imitate. Jesus wasn't faking it when he suffered. He was like us and tempted in the same way we are.

Philippians 2:5-11. He laid aside his rights. He emptied himself, became a slave. He was still God, but set aside the rights of divinity. He deserved to be worshipped and was scorned, he deserved to be praised and was mocked. He laid aside the continual use of his divine attributes, not the actual attributes themselves.

He chose to learn, he chose to be tempted. He did use the divine attributes from time to time, e.g. to forgive sin. He didn't use them all the time.

How then did he do it? How did he live his life? He did it by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That’s why we see the Spirit coming on him and resting on him, to enable him to live his life on the earth. He was the second Adam. How did he say "no" to sin? By the power of the Spirit. How did he obey? How did he heal? How did he cast out demons? It was all by the power of the Holy Spirit.

He was Spirit-filled, spirit-anointed and Spirit-led. What does it mean to be a charismatic? It means to be like Jesus!

Most of the creeds miss out on his life. They say he was born and he died. What else did he do? We must focus on what is missing in the creeds—the Spirit-filled and anointed life of Jesus.

Let’s apply this to missiology. Jesus lived in heaven and came to earth — that’s a missionary. He lived in heaven in a culture of no sin where God was honored. He came to a culture which was rebellious and sinful. We tend to overlook the fact that Jesus was a missionary.

The Spirit loves to empower those who are on a mission. Not just so we can pray better, worship louder, give more generously, but that we would be a better missionary to expand the knowledge of God to the ends of the earth.

To be Spirit-filled and Spirit-led is to be missional because Jesus was!

[At this point, Mark returned to describing for us all the various things the Holy Spirit does.]

The Spirit leads us sometimes into hardship, testing, and temptation.
Luke 4 — Jesus—full of the Holy Spirit. He was led from the Jordan into the wilderness. He was led by the Spirit to the devil!

We are led to active ministry, and to contemplative ministry. Connect to God before you go to serve him. Anointing leads to silence, solitude, prayer, and contemplation, as well as testing, temptation, and fasting. He tests our character and prepares us. If you go through such a time, remember the same thing happened to Jesus.

Don't be always doing, but never being. Jesus was tempted and tested, and because he resisted sin, it was confirmed that he was prepared for ministry.

Spirit-anointed ministry includes preaching.
Luke 4:14 — Silence precedes speech and contemplation precedes action.
Cannot preach without periods of silence, prayer, and fasting. Spirit is needed to preach.

Luke 4:17 — Spirit is still anointing him to do the work. He was anointed to proclaim liberty.

Spirit-anointed ministry includes justice for the poor.

Spirit-filled ministry includes joy in God.
Luke 10:21 — Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit. Driscoll feels this is something we in Newfrontiers can give to him. He says that he has a tendency to see the negative, to see sin, to identify errors, to see what mistakes are being made. What he experienced in worship here reminded him of that verse about how Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit. That is what we were doing here in the worship times. [Driscoll seemed to have been quite affected by our worship time.]

We can rejoice in God when we still see the suffering of this world, but beyond it we see God. We can weep or we can sing and dance and clap in the Spirit. Jesus saw the grace of God in children and was enjoyable company.

The Spirit is given to us by the Father.
Jesus said in a parable that if you know how to give good gifts, the Father will give the Spirit to those who ask. If you like to live a life like mine, says Jesus, you better ask my Father for the Holy Spirit. The power of the Spirit makes the Christian life possible. We need to continually ask the Father for more of the Spirit so we can learn well, suffer well, serve well, and die well.

The Spirit teaches us what to say. (Luke 12:11)
He enables us to speak to people. He helps us to speak in such a way that there is no explanation for the results of it apart from his power.

In the book of Acts, Luke continues with what Jesus did. He died for our sins, rose for our justification, conquered Satan. You would think that was enough and that he had done it all. Acts records the rest. Acts 1 says what Jesus did was THROUGH the Holy Spirit. Having seen what Jesus did through the Spirit, Luke introduces us to the idea that the same Spirit could come on the disciples so they could do the same things.

Power is needed to do ministry properly. This power is given so we can be missionaries. How do you know someone has the Holy Spirit? It’s because they are on a mission.

We are on a mission. In Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. Start where you are. We can’t just go across the world. We need to go across the street. It’s easy to pray for the ends of the earth and neglect the ends of the street.

How is your witness in Jerusalem? Do you KNOW people in your road? In your workplace?
Is Jesus visible? If you are good witnesses in Jerusalem you will never be lacking for church planters. You harvest church planters in your church, in your neighborhood, in your street.

Jesus ascended back into heaven where he had come from. You can imagine they would want to tell the world straight away, “Jesus is alive; he has conquered sin and death.†But they had to WAIT. Some of us have to wait. It’s not yet time. Imagine that—they sit on this news for weeks! It is an astonishing thing that even though their message was so wonderful, they were not allowed to proclaim it until they had been filled with the Holy Spirit.

Charismatics have Acts 2 on the fridge. We all know this one! Sounds like a mighty rushing wind.

Jesus was a missionary. The Church is to be a missionary, too. A Spirit-anointed Jesus anointed the Church.

He wants us to do the works of Jesus. We must connect Acts with Luke.

We are to be enabled and empowered to live a life like Jesus—a life fill of authority and mission.

The Spirit anoints so that the gospel can be communicated to every language, tongue, and dialect. It’s so that the vision of Revelation can come true!

Spirit-filled ministry results in repentance.
Brothers, what shall we do? Repentance is one of the greatest evidences of the work of the Spirit within us. Many today preach encouragement—try harder, do better. We must preach repentance. It’s the one thing Jesus never did that we are supposed to do all the time. Preaching repentance is only fitting for those who practice repentance.

We practice worldly sorrow, but it doesn't rock us to the depths and compel us to change.

We have our back to God and our face towards sin. Repentance puts our face towards God and our back to sin.

Spirit-filled ministry brings conversion.

The verse continues, “Be baptized and you will receive the Spirit. That day there were added to the church 3,000 souls.â€

Many today are not interested in true conversion. It’s about passing from death to life. We need the power of the Spirit to lead to repentance and conversion.

Spirit-filled ministry brings devotion to one another and awe towards God.

Acts 2 — Awe, prayer, food, fellowship. Jesus is alive! Are you in awe of that? All our sins are forgiven! Are you in awe of that?

We are part of the ministry of Jesus doing anointed work by the power of the Spirit — the same one who raised Jesus from the dead! Do you have a sense of awe? We don't deserve ministry. We need awe in it. Don't lose your sense of awe. That is the way Judas Iscariot became what he did.

We also need a sense of gratefulness that the Spirit has regenerated us and enabled and gifted us. Absolute wonder. We get to be a part of it!

We mustn't resist quench or grieve the Holy Spirit.

The Lord added daily those being saved.

The Church was birthed by the power and ministry of the Holy Spirit.

What constitutes a church? Define what it is and does. You don't want to lose your faithfulness.

Not just Word and sacrament. Rather it is the work of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit the Church does not exist.

EIGHT MARKS OF A CHURCH IN ACTS

Community of regenerated believers. You are not a part of the Church if you are not a Christian! Jesus died for us, but the Spirit must regenerate us and cause us to be reborn. 2 Corinthians 5:21. Imputation goes both ways. The great exchange—the doctrine of justification. N. T. Wright gets the resurrection right and the cross wrong! Fight the war for justification, BUT don't neglect regeneration! Regeneration is that God gives us a new heart. A new creation. My new life as a missionary on the earth. Heart of stone gone, flesh given. Sin nature gone, new nature in. Life patterned after life of Jesus.

The heart is the center of everything—so a new heart means a new identity, a new passion, new gifts, a new purpose, new power, new desires. I get to live a whole new life. LEGALISM tells us that we have to do things; the gospel tells us we get to do things. “I want to serve God; I want to pray; I want to read my Bible; I want to learn humility; I don't want to be ashamed, I want him to say “Well doneâ€; I want to enter into my rest. Living for our strongest desires, not merely to "not sin." It’s not merely to avoid the bad things, but to love God. It is the Spirit that delivers us and gives us new desires to love God and to do good. Temptations come, but our deepest desire should be for God and the things of God. Joyful, meaningful, purposeful life that never ends, but continues in his presence!

Mark didn't get a chance to cover the rest, but implied he would look at them later, having briefly mentioned them:

Organized
Gathered
Observe the sacraments
Unified
Disciplined
Scattered as missionaries
Give God glory and experience joy

Holy Spirit longs, desires, wills to anoint us for the glory of Jesus—to live like him, for him, and to him as a missionary to the ends of the earth!

Driscoll prayed for us as a movement and asked God to take our appreciation for the Bible and love for Jesus and unite within us fervent desires to live a life like Jesus, with Jesus, and FOR Jesus!

He thanked God who sent the Son as an example, sent the Spirit as an enabler, and sent US to the world.

He wanted us to be Spirit-filled, Spirit-led, justified, regenerated, spirit-compelled.

He said our goal of 1,000 churches is too small! And that there were many nations where church plants were to be accomplished.

Jesus has a passion for the earth that he made! We are to love Jesus because he first loved us, and to love the world because we love Jesus.

Labels: Acts of the Apostles, Gifts of Holy Spirit, Luke, Mark Driscoll, Missional, Newfrontiers, TOAM08

Well . . . I’m here! And the Brighton conference has begun. The sense of anticipation and excitement is incredible. Joyful reunions of friends who have been on separate continents are happening everywhere. We are really a family. We are really on a mission.

At the beginning of the week, I would ask that you pray for me. It is a busy week for me with typing, interviewing, and, of course, just meeting friends. My jet lag is improving quickly. I was also determined this year, more than usual, to press into God in the worship time. Sometimes when live-blogging, it's possible to feel a bit detached from the goings on just because you’re typing away. Please pray for me about that.

Also, please pray for my long-suffering wife, Andrée, who I have left at home with our five children. May God carry her and give her real grace as what she is doing is more important than what I am doing. No one is going to die if I mistype a word here! I am already missing her and looking forward to seeing her again at the end of the week.

Right from the start I wanted to ensure I focused on God. Sitting near the front, and being intentional about it, I certainly found myself carried into an awareness of the presence of God by the thousands in the room, the worship band, and the wonderful words of the songs. We learned a great new song. It began, “His name is Jesus, Risen Savior†and was a triumphant celebration of the death and resurrection of our Savior. The song is from Lou Fellingham's new album, which can also be bought as MP3 downloads. Vibrant is not a strong enough word to describe the feel of this worship time.

As Nigel Ring prepared to introduce our first speaker, he told us that 20 per cent of the world’s nations are represented at this conference. He read out the name of each country, and there was a corresponding “whoop†after each nation was mentioned. There are 52 nations in attendance:

Albania, Armenia, Australia, Bangladesh, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil
Cambodia, Canada, Cyprus, Denmark, Ethiopia, France
Germany, Ghana, Guinea, India, Ireland, Israel, Japan, Kenya, Latvia
Lesotho, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nigeria
Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, Portugal, Romania, Russia
Serbia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Tajikistan, Turkey
Uganda, Channel Islands, England, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland
Scotland, Wales, Ukraine, UAE, USA, Zambia, Zimbabwe

The preacher this afternoon was Stephen Van Rhyn. Stephen is the lead elder of Jubilee Community Church in Cape Town, South Africa. He is married to Anna and has two young boys, Josh and Ben, and one daughter, Bethany.

Stephen directed us to Daniel 1 and read the entire chapter for us. He entitled his talk Prevailing Under Pressure.

He set the scene by explaining the terrible trauma experienced by the Jews in being exiled. What was worse, these events were not random. They had been determined by their God who had saved them, and had now judged them. Their sin was to make God surplus to requirements. They had been warned not to reject him. They had been wooed.

Galatians 6:7-8 warns us that God cannot be mocked. Persistent rebellion against God will not go unpunished. God is faithful to all his promises, including the promise to punish the disobedient. This might seem discouraging, but because of what it shows us, we can be encouraged.

Labels: Daniel, Stephen Van Rhyn, TOAM08

Begining tomorrow I will be live-blogging the Newfrontiers conference, Together On A Mission. (I will shorten this to TOAM.)

My posts will all be found on my TOAM08 label page.

You can download the mp3s of this week's talks by subscribing to the new Newfrontiers podcast, which will be an easy way for you to get access to the mp3s for free.

Newfrontiers is a family of reformed charismatic churches that began in England and now reaches into many nations. Last year we had 53 nations represented in Brighton; maybe this year it will be more. My live-blogging from TOAM07 and TOAM06 is also available.

The main visiting speaker this year is Mark Driscoll. I have a number of posts about him, including notes of sermons and an e-mail interview.

If you are interested in finding out more about Newfrontiers, the following interviews with leaders in Newfrontiers are helpful, some of which were carried out at New Word Alive. There is also a comprehensive Newfrontiers website.

TERRY VIRGO — Leader and founder of Newfrontiers

STUART TOWNEND — Co-writer with Keith Getty of the hymn "In Christ Alone"
JOHN LANFERMAN — Leader, Newfrontiers USA
NATHAN FELLINGHAM — Songwriter and member of Phatfish

Labels: Mark Driscoll, Newfrontiers, NWA08, Terry Virgo, TOAM06, TOAM07, TOAM08

This concludes my interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo. Today Terry provides insight into why he decided to work together with the New Word Alive conference. He also tells us how he chooses who to work with, and in particular, what led him to invite Mark Driscoll to the Brighton Conference, which will begin on July 8th. (I will be live-blogging the conference.) The video of this segment of the interview can be viewed here.

The two previous segments of this interview with Terry and Wendy can be read at these pages:


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Adrian
I can see from what you’re saying just how incredibly busy you must personally be overseeing all this. It just kind of brings me back to the fact that, yeah, you’re taking time out from your busy schedules to come here, so you must feel that this conference is pretty important and pretty crucial for, I guess, those outside of Newfrontiers. There aren’t that many Newfrontiers people here. Why would you come here? What’s so important about this specific conference this week?

Terry
I truly believe God wants to bring together a people who love Scripture, people who would flock to hear someone like Don Carson or John Piper, people who really regard Scripture highly.

Adrian
Very good. So, how do you determine, then, who you’re going to work with and who you’re not. Obviously you’re happy to work with these guys, and without going to names, I guess there must be others in UK that you’re not happy to work with. How do you determine that?

Terry
Most of my life has to be lived working out my commitment to Newfrontiers. That is where my loyalty lies. That’s where my duty lies. These are people who are expecting me to serve them, and I’m very happy to serve them. I’ve always felt that God said, “Now always keep a door open to the broader body of Christ. Don’t get shut in.†So for decades now, we’ve always had some involvement. So I get invitations and I have to choose here and there whether I will go. And this seemed a really brilliant place to come. I was honored to be invited, especially with a Carson and Piper here. So, yeah, I count it a huge privilege to be here. Also being a fairly substantial sizable conference, it means one can reach many people in a short time. After I spoke at the UCCF Forum, I had dozens, I think it would be true to say, letters from Christian Unions saying would I please come and speak at their CU. Well, I can’t do that. I can’t be driving all over England, speaking in CU meetings. But I can speak to a couple thousand students here in one week, so this is a really good economy of time, as well as an enjoyable thing to do.

Adrian
Okay. So I know, as an example, you’ve chosen to invite Mark Driscoll to the Brighton Conference this year. And in the past you’ve chosen various people who some people, I think, were surprised about. How do you go about choosing them, and specifically Mark. What made you choose Mark for this year’s Brighton Conference?

Terry
I’ve been listening to Mark Driscoll over the last year or so, I guess. I’m deeply impressed with his biblical stance. I think he’s an unusually powerful preacher. He is also bitingly relevant to our generation and aware of the culture in which we live. I think he’s very unusual. He’s not only fighting for the truth in some sort of static way of just defining the doctrine. He reminds me of a kind of latter day Spurgeon. He’s very clear on doctrine. He’s very evangelistic, building a great church, it sounds, helping to plant churches in Acts 29—again like Spurgeon, who helped to get churches started all around London. You hear about people in Australia who were reading his sermons a week or so after he preached them in London as they printed them and sent them round the world. And now Driscoll’s been downloaded all over the world. He’s an unusual guy, very robust, like Spurgeon was, out of step somewhat, even with his group. But I love what I hear. I’ve yet to meet him, but I love what I hear.

Adrian
Great. Excellent. Well, we’ll look forward to another big conference in July. It seems like there’s conference after conference, doesn’t it? It’s great, I guess, to have people gathering round God’s Word and learning stuff. I mean, that’s what I find anyway. I like conferences because you keep going . . .

Terry
I think I love the local church the most, and I know that would be true of you.

Adrian
Yes!

Terry
That’s where we work out our lives. That’s where we grow. We can’t build our lives on conferences. But we have been associated with some very big ones over the years and know the huge impact, so I certainly don’t despise conferences, but I know that in the end we work out our lives in God in the local church.

Adrian
H-m-m-m. Very good, very good. Well, thanks very much, both of you, for joining us. It’s been a real delight, as always, and I guess we’ll leave it with that. Thank you.

Terry
Thank you, Adrian.

Labels: Interviews, Newfrontiers, NWA08, Terry Virgo

This is the second installment of my interview with Terry and Wendy Virgo which began yesterday. That segment can be read here. The video version of this part of the interview can be seen here.

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Adrian
Wendy, I want to ask you something now because it’s been awhile since you’ve had a chance to get a word in edgewise—I suspect you might be used to that! (Laughter) How has it been for you with your husband—obviously in the younger years, away a lot—leaving you at home with the kids—five I think?

Wendy
Yes.

Adrian
This is a very personal question, because my poor wife has the same problem.

Wendy
Oh, yes, she has five kids, too.

Adrian
And me traveling more for work, of course. But how did you cope being left alone, like she is right now, with five children and actually no car, I’m ashamed to admit.

Wendy
Oh, right. Well, when Terry was away, usually it was abroad, so I did have the use of the car, which was very helpful.

Adrian
Well, she usually does as well. This is, in fact, the first time since we went down to one car that we’ve been in this situation.

Wendy
Oh, right.

Adrian
Well, what about you? You were left at home; he was away . . .

Wendy
Well, our main focus is to build churches, which are really all one another in context, so we aren’t left alone, in fact. I was very much involved in church life and very beautifully loved and served by the church that I’ve been in now for twenty-five or six years. And, I didn’t actually feel that I was left alone. Obviously, I missed Terry a lot when he was away, but life was very busy and very full, and I never felt solitary, if you know what I mean.

Adrian
Yeah, yeah.

Wendy
And it has been great that as the children have grown up and now have their own homes (they’re all married now) that I can travel much more with Terry. I think it is a new season. Terry always used to travel with another guy or a group of guys because it was part of his training of them and part of introducing them to our values and helping them to see how an apostle works and how to work with an apostle, and developing a whole understanding of apostolic work. So, to take a group of guys with him was very helpful and instructive to all concerned. But now we have a number of men who would be in that position, like David Holden, Dave Devenish, and so on, who would also take groups of people with them, teams I would say. But as they have developed teamwork as well, they are now going off with their wives because their children are also grown up. So it’s becoming a bit of a pattern, I think.

Adrian
You’re very much involved, right in the thick of things, then?

Wendy
Probably not as much as say, some people like Dave Devenish, who goes into a place for several weeks or months at a time.

Adrian
And he’s taken his wife in those situations?

Wendy
Well, yes, that’s the thing. It’s quite a sacrifice, I think, at times. Tramping around places like Kazakhstan, places I can’t even pronounce. But, actually, Terry now will be going to Australia for three months at the end of this year, and that will be a new adventure for us.

Adrian
But you went to America for three years, didn’t you?

Wendy
Two years.

Adrian
Two years!

Wendy
Yes, yes. Actually that was a very positive time, too.

Adrian
Yes. So, I’m going to move back to Terry for a moment now because your wife just mentioned this funny “a†word—apostolic, apostle work. What about that? Because obviously there will be a lot of people who will, I guess, not really understand what that means for Newfrontiers.

Terry
Yes. I think it’s very important to say that we see different types of apostles, even in the Bible—Jesus the great apostle; the twelve, unique obviously, in the book of Revelation. But then you see in Ephesians 4—Jesus ascends on high and gives from his ascended position apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers—so there’s that ongoing ministry. He says this will be until the Church comes to fullness of stature, to a mature man. So, in a sense, this is an ongoing thing that God will continually give these varied ministries. So one isn’t looking for more Bible writers. I think very often we from the reformed tradition have thought—well, an apostle writes the Scripture and that’s his role. But, really, I don’t think that stands up to close inspection. Several of the twelve did not write Scripture. Several of the people who wrote Scripture were not apostles, so it’s not really the point. The point is more church planters. Paul says as a wise master builder, “I lay the foundationâ€â€”he traveled, he planted churches. We feel that’s really what we’re talking about—modern day church planters. People who pioneer new ground, establish eldership, establish churches, and a fathering, ongoing care for those churches, strongly built on relationship, so that we’re friends in the ministry, as Paul referred to people. Even at the end of Romans, in chapter 16, there are all these personal greetings to people. So we’re building very relationally. We’re building new churches, planting churches. And now various teams have been raised up doing apostolic work. [Ed: See post Apostles Are Meant For Today for more information.]

Adrian
Right. So I guess in summary what you’re talking about, for those people who have different vocabularies, is someone who can church plant and help establish churches. That’s obviously exciting. I mean, there are 500 churches in Newfrontiers now, aren’t there? Is that right?

Terry
It’s probably nearer 600 now.

Adrian
Wow! Last time I checked it was 400, so the number must be going up very quickly.

Terry
Yes, it is. I’ve been in touch today, just a moment ago, with Edward Buria in Kenya, where there are now some 130 churches, which he has helped start, and we served with him and are very much in touch with him at the moment with the political tensions there. And then we have churches in South Africa, and indeed, around the world. So when you add them all up around the world, it’s untold. It’s difficult to keep up because Edward plants so many churches in Kenya. But we’re also planting churches in West Africa, South Africa, and into Asia, and as Wendy was saying, Australia now, New Zealand. So we’re planting churches very widely.

Adrian
You didn’t mention anything about America, though.

Terry
Yes, we are. I’ve been to the USA, and in fact, we’ll be at the . . .we’ve been in March to the Leaders Conference, and then we’re going again in June to our midwest family camp [ONEBLAZE] held in Warrensburg [Missouri] just outside Kansas City, and then in August we’re going across to the West, where we have growing involvement in Oregon, and in Idaho and Montana—a number of churches that are reaching toward us. Quite a lot of these pastors are coming over. I understand thirty pastors are coming from the West to our Brighton Conference, Together on a Mission, in July, where there will be about 5,000 gathered there. But just from that part of America, we have thirty coming. So I would think there might be something in the region of sixty coming over from the US to our conference in the summer. [Ed: For more details see Newfrontiers events in the USA.]

Continued in part 3 . . .

Labels: Interviews, Newfrontiers, NWA08, Terry Virgo

Today I am going to share the written transcript of the first segment of a three-part interview with Terry Virgo and his wife, Wendy at the New Word Alive Conference in North Wales. The video of that segment can be seen here. I have also previously interviewed Terry here.

In this segment I ask them to tell us a little bit about what they do, what is Newfrontiers, and how Terry came to speak at the New Word Alive Conference this year.

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Adrian
Hi. I’m Adrian Warnock. I blog over at adrianwarnock.com and I’m part of the leadership team at Jubilee Church in London. I’m here at New Word Alive in North Wales, and am actually in Terry and Wendy Virgo’s chalet. Terry and Wendy very kindly agreed to join us for a short interview about the conference and whatever else we decide to talk about, I guess. So, thanks for joining us, Terry and Wendy.

Terry
Thanks, Adrian. Good to see you.

Adrian
Yeah. It’s great that you were able to find some time to chat with us, and to just be here at this conference. I just wonder, how have you found the conference so far?

Terry
Well, we’ve really enjoyed the opportunity for fellowship with a number of people we wouldn’t normally see. First of all, I’ve never met Don Carson, and it’s been magnificent to listen to him, and John Piper—inspiring again. It’s good to make new friends—people whose names I’ve known, like Wallace Benn. This is the first time I’ve got to meet him. It’s been an excellent time. Thank you.

Adrian
Good, thanks. And what about you, Wendy?

Wendy
Yes. I wasn’t quite sure what I was coming to, but I was relieved to find it is set in an absolutely beautiful location. And also I have so enjoyed especially Don Carson’s and John Piper’s messages. I’ve really been blown away by their passionate delivery of theology.

Adrian
Yeah, it’s been great, hasn’t it? So, Terry, there will be a few people watching this [and reading it] who perhaps won't know who you are. I mean, I find that amazing; you probably don’t find that amazing. But people do watch this in the States, and also some other places. I wonder if you could, in your own words really, talk a little bit about what it is you do with your life when you’re not in a chalet in Wales.

Terry
Yes, which is pretty rare! I’m based in Brighton on the south coast of England, and I’m an elder of a church there called Church of Christ the King. From there, I travel out with Newfrontiers, which is a group of churches that works in about 40 nations now. In the UK we have about 220 churches, and then globally we’re pressing on towards 600 churches. So I travel a lot. Later this month we’ll be in Russia at a pastors and wives conference, and then we’ll be in the States in May and June, and we’ll be in France with our pastors and wives there from the Newfrontiers churches. So we travel quite a lot.

Adrian
You say “we.†Is that the two of you, or just you, or sometimes a mixture of both?

Terry
We have five children who are all now married and have left home. And we often travel together now.

Adrian
Oh, that's the "we."

Wendy
Yes.

Adrian
So what does Wendy get up to, then, when she’s not holding your bags? Well, I hope he carries your bags Wendy!

Wendy
Yes, traveling does take up a lot of our time, but when I’m at home I love to be involved in things like Alpha Courses, although increasingly I’m not able to do that. But I do write for various Bible notes such as TWR and Day By Day, the Bible Reading Fellowship, Scripture Union obviously for as well. I speak at ladies’ days around the country, and I’m also engaged in writing a book at the moment.

Adrian
That’s very interesting. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Or are you sworn to secrecy on that?

Wendy
Well, yes, perhaps it is a little bit premature, but it’s about the effect that women can have in a Church for good or bad.

Adrian
Very good. That sounds really interesting. I look forward to reading that, no doubt, sometime in the future. Now you’re going to have to finish it as you’ve said it online.

Wendy
I know.

Adrian
(Laughing) There you go! So, obviously both of you are incredibly busy, traveling an awful lot, all around the place, looking after all these churches. What made you decide to accept the invitation to come here? I know you’ve been involved with UCCF for quite awhile as well, haven’t you? Is it some kind of advisory board you’re on with them, or . . .

Terry
Yes. The invitation came from UCCF. I’ve made a very good friend in Richard Cunningham. He’s a fine guy. I like him. He asked me to be involved with UCCF, and then having agreed to that, I was then invited to speak at their Leaders Forum a year or two back, and had a very happy time working through Romans and then leading Bible studies. And I’ve enjoyed the fellowship. I’m so glad that they have embraced us. We come from a charismatic perspective. Our church life is charismatic. UCCF has not been famously charismatic, but they’re making a statement of openness, and I’ve been received very warmly, both in their Forum, which I’m due to speak at again next year (2009), and then here as well. And so it’s an interesting coming together of people who love Scripture, love doctrine, love the truth of God. And it’s great to have Stuart Townend here, and Phatfish, who come from my home church. We're very proud of them. Stuart’s written some magnificant songs, as have Phatfish, and I know they are welcomed around the world. It’s great to be together with them here as well. So we’ve enjoyed that.

Adrian
Yeah, and we’re singing the same songs as well, aren’t we? It’s interesting. Those divisions, at least in terms of songs, just don’t seem to be there anymore, really, you know?

Terry
I was fascinated when I was invited to speak at the Keswick Convention, probably three years ago now, and again I felt as the worship took place before I spoke, I think three-quarters of the songs we sang had been written by people in my home church. I felt remarkably . . .

Adrian
What is it about the sea water down there? You guys seem to keep producing singers, don’t you?

Terry
Yes, we have some great songwriters . . .

Adrian
I guess that church is a sort of resource church, really, isn’t it? I guess that would be one way of describing it in terms of—you have all kinds of different people going out and serving in various different way from there, haven’t you?

Terry
I think David Fellingham originally was with us from the beginning when we started our church. We started with 38 people back in about 1980, and David joined us quite early on with tremendous musical skills and devotion to God. He started writing songs that became very famous. And then others joined us like Stuart Townend, Paul Oakley, then his other son, Nathan Fellingham, came through writing songs. Kate Simmonds. More recently Simon Brading. In fact, we’re starting a worship school again this coming autumn, and we trust people will want to book in and come for the monthly program that will take place through this coming year.

Adrian
That’s great. So I mean, coming here, I guess we’re joining hands with people who perhaps years ago we'd never have imagined we'd be joining hands with. I mean, would that be a fair way of describing it?

Terry
Yes, it’s true. For me, when I was first converted from a completely non-Christian background, my sister had joined All Souls Langham Place, and I first responded to the gospel publically there. So I met John Stott on that day. So my roots go back to an evangelical context. And while I was at college, I listened to Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. So one feels so at home with these truths. Then I had an experience of the Holy Spirit, opening up the gifts of the Spirit in our church life. Which means we're certainly not cessationists. We believe in the presence and the power of God. We’ve never abandoned these great evangelical truths which we greatly love and have always preached during this time of enjoying the presence of the Spirit as well—seeing people being healed, and prophecies, and things of that order. So that we can find a very happy combination of those things.

Adrian
Yeah, I think that people are sort of almost feeling that this is a new thing—this combination of reformed and charismatic. I guess it’s newly prominent. It’s something that’s been around, I guess what you’re saying, all along. Is that right?

Terry
Well, I think I’ve always held that position going back many years. Joel Edwards, who has been the Evangelical Alliance leader for some years, said he felt that we at Newfrontiers in England were fairly unique for being famously charismatic and famously reformed theologically. He thought we were unusual. But we’re friends right across the board, and I’m very grateful for that.

Adrian
Good. Thanks.

Continued in part 2 . . .

Labels: Conferences, Interviews, Newfrontiers, NWA08, Terry Virgo

As we drew to the close of the first segment of my interview with John Lanferman yesterday we began to speak about reformed charismatic churches. Today I begin by asking him if he believes there is a hunger for such churches in the USA. You can also download the audio of this interview.

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Adrian
Yeah, that’s so important, isn’t it? So as you look out over the nation, do you feel that there is a hunger in the US for these kind of churches, a desire to see them?

John
Absolutely. I think especially an emerging generation, the 20’s and 30’s generation, pretty much in the US left the church. But we’re seeing a lot of these people coming back into the church. In our own church, that would be the largest demographic. And these are young people who really have a value of the foundations of the past, historical Christian faith would be important to them, but also a mixture of what the culture has created—a desire to experience something in the Spirit. They’re not afraid of that. So you have this desire to be rooted in something that’s stable—historical Christian faith—but at the same time, wanting to experience something of God in the Spirit. And are not afraid of spiritual manifestations; in fact, they’re hungry for that. Hungry to experience the very real presence of God for themselves in a very tangible way.

Adrian
Yeah. It’s interesting because a lot of people are talking about that kind of resurgence of reformed faith in the US in the 20’s and 30’s [age group]. It’s interesting to hear you saying that a lot of those guys are also looking for something quite experiential.

John
Absolutely.

Adrian
I guess people like John Piper are probably a major part of that, aren’t they? Because the way he preaches—it’s all about knowing God, and [having] a kind of relationship with God, and valuing God, rather than just purely as an intellectual thing.

John
Yes, and he’s taken some fairly strong stands. He actually is not a cessationist. He actually does believe . . .

Adrian
Most people are really surprised when they hear that. What? John Piper is not a cessationist? You’re kidding!

John
That’s true. And he has huge influence in our nation among the evangelical community. I think his welcoming in of people like C. J. Mahaney, and even embracing guys like Mark Driscoll . . .

Adrian
Yes!

John
. . . and just to see what’s happening there encourages me quite a great deal.

One of the negative things that’s happening in the US as well—you have the emerging church. On one end of it you have a very orthodox guy like Mark Driscoll, and a bit colorful as well. (Adrian laughing) While on the other end you have people who have a greater degree of relevancy, so doctrine and theology is kind of fluid, and they want to adapt that to culture, and so that leads to heresy. And that’s a frightening thing. But there’s a wing of that emerging church that is very much moving in that direction as well, as you probably well know. That’s a frightening thing in the US because there’s quite a large following of that group as well.

Adrian
That’s right. And I think some of those historic doctrines are being questioned . . .

John
They are!

Adrian
. . . in a way that you’d be surprised at. But that’s not unique to the US either. As you know, we’ve had some issues over here with that, particularly with regard to the atonement and things like that. I mean, is the atonement such a big issue in the US as it is over here in the UK, would you say?

John
It’s not with mainline evangelical groups, but I think with the emerging church, the people who are on one side of that very much—that’s one of the questions. And even the desire to be culturally relevant and accepting of alternative life styles has led people to make an adjustment as to how they approach that. And they won’t make categorical statements any more. So they’re standing on sand rather than the solid rock of the Book. So I think that’s a concern as well. These guys are fairly media savvy, and it’s a subtle thing . . . to find a way into churches.

Adrian
I think that’ right. With the advent of the media and the Internet, well, I know this only two well. It’s possible for people to hit above their weight. I mean, Here am I — just some guy in a church in London whose blog is read all around the world. And I think that happening with a lot of people, and you can have influence, either for good or not good, far above, actually, what you are accomplishing on the ground in that sense. Or over what you feel you should have influence.

John
Yes, absolutely, that’s true.

Adrian
I think it is a bit concerning, isn’t it? How some people are causing us to drift away from truth.

John
The thing that’s concerning about it is that—not [only] are they gifted and charismatic, but in actuality, there’s the element of Christianity about them. So you’re dealing with something different than people who are totally secular. So it’s a subtle thing. A lot of people are not very scripturally astute. It’s easy to be pulled along in that train.

Adrian
Don’t you think that it’s quite interesting when you look [at it] historically? A lot of these ideas have been tried before, haven’t they?

John
Yes, they have. And the thing is, they always end up on a dead-end street. They don’t have a long cycle. They come around, but ultimately God is very protective of his Church. He is very zealous for it. And the church that’s rooted in biblical value and persuasion continues on. I’m very encouraged in America about the uptick in church planting. I don’t know if you want to talk about that or not . . .

Adrian
Yeah, church planting is great, yeah.

John
In the US, over the last two decades, there has been a deterioration in people who are committed to regular church attendance. It’s averaged a 10 per cent decline in each of the last ten years—so 20 per cent less are now involved in church activities, or even actually community activities, than before. But now, groups like Acts 29, and on a much, much smaller scale, but I like to say, Sovereign Grace, and Newfrontiers, and various other church planting movements, Global Net—these groups that are coming to the forefront planting churches, training people, are based on orthodox Christian faith with a real sense of mission. So missional churches are emerging among us, and many of them are growing, seeing lots of people saved. So I actually—while we have these rather alarming trends, I see much to be very excited about in the US.

Adrian
Yes, oh yes. Just for the sake of those out there—I know some people sitting out there are thinking, “What exactly is a missional church, John?†How would you define that?

John
A church that understands that it exists for the express purpose of carrying the gospel to the next door neighbor, to the person in the next block, to the person in the next city, state, and nation, and they exist for the purpose of being carriers of the gospel. So they are involved, not only in proclamation, but they are involved in changing the whole culture of a community. They would be people who would be involved in cross-cultural evangelism. They would be people who would be involved in changing the social justice—be involved in that ministry to the poor—so they have a desire to see the whole community that they are involved with, the towns they are involved with, changed and made into a kingdom community. It’s people who understand, “We do not exist for ourselves, but we exist for them.†So the way we spend our money. the way we staff our churches, the way our churches feel, the way they operate, have that outward appeal. And it’s a God-centered approach to humanity rather than an inward, “What about me and my needs?†It’s a man-centered approach.

Adrian
That’s very good. So that’s really very much what’s on your heart as you go across the nation, isn’t it? I guess that’s what you’re saying—to see those kinds of churches multiplied.

John
Absolutely—if we can get outstanding churches in each of these 100 large cities, and out from that, begin to reproduce ourselves. Because I’m fanatical on reproducing churches. We must not just plant churches, but we [want to] see churches that view themselves as reproducing churches, multiply themselves, raise up leaders, give themselves away, spread out in the communities and the nations beyond.

Adrian
It’s just so exciting to see what God is doing in a nation, but also what he’s doing around the world, and to be able to link up with that. I guess we’re back to the conference in a way. Because that’s what this is all about, isn’t it? Together on a Mission.

John
Yes, it is. And I think what’s interesting is how we help each other. The different nations, different men, bring different things into the pool. I’m receiving from others. I’m receiving from my friends in Africa, or my friends in India, and so it’s even the in-between times when we’re kind of sharing ideas back and forth and getting on board how we can assist one another. Because it’s just not about our own little patch. It’s us owning the world together. It’s us saying, “We want to see the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ grow and expand to all the nations of the world. So, I have just as much a vital interest in what’s happening in Africa, or what’s happening in Europe, as I would even in our own place. Because we have to own the whole vision of God. I do know that I have a particular responsibility for a sphere.

Adrian
Yeah.

John
But God has called us to work together. I think that’s the joy of what’s happening here in this conference, and who we are in Newfrontiers as well.

Adrian
Yeah. And I guess when we gather together like this, significant words can come as well, that shape us really.

John
It’s true. I think it’s in the worship that God is speaking to us. It’s in the preaching as well. But also in prophetic words that come to us. And you can just see the impact that’s happening across the room . . .

Adrian
Yes!

John
. . . guys coming together and buzzing about this, and what God is saying. So it’s quite helpful actually.

Adrian
If my readers are sitting there in America somewhere thinking, “You know what?†This all sounds great. I’d love to be in a church like that.†How would they find out more?

John
Well, they can come to our website, of course. Just type into the search engine Newfrontiers USA, and there, of course, they can find us, and where our churches are located. Of course, I would welcome any contact there in St. Louis where we are based.

Adrian
Excellent. Do you run any conferences, or anything like that, there in the USA?

John
Yes, we do. We have an annual Leadership Conference that’s hosted by us there in St. Louis. But we have also moved out regionally. Originally we were just a small cluster of churches in Missouri, but now we have established cluster churches in New England, and we’ve moved into the Pacific Northwest, and now we’ve moved into the Southeast as well. So we’ve established regional events because we are a family of churches, just not a fraternity of leaders. So churches come together there for envisioning, and leadership events happen, as well as 20’s conferences, and events for teenagers. Just this next week, we’re gathering several hundred teenagers, not just to go to a camp and somehow be refreshed and go back all enthusiastic for a couple of weeks, but actually to be involved in a mission and social action. We’re going to go out into the streets. We’re going to get with children in the neighborhoods. We’re going to begin to work into that community. So we have lots of events by which we’re bringing people together. There’s something that can happen when a group of churches come together that simply cannot happen with a church on its own. And there is just a combined strength of coming together around the singleness of vision and purpose that not only helps with what we do together, but actually helps when people go back to their own churches. They’ve caught something, see? And they take it back with them. So we have several events like that. And men’s conferences and ladies conferences that are happening throughout the nation. So immediately when I go back, we will have a One Blaze event, which is the teen event, in St. Louis. And from there, I’ll leave the next week and go up to New England, and we’ll have a big family camp out there where we gather the churches. We bring in international speakers, as well as myself, and we’re envisioned.

Adrian
Great. Sounds great. It’s just so exciting to hear about what God’s doing over there in the States. Thank you so much for joining us, John. Is there anything else that you’d like to share with my readers before we close?

John
I’m very much enthused about what God is going to be doing in the US, and what he is doing now. I’m thrilled when I see the moving of his Spirit in more prononced ways, as well as the value of the Word. I’m particularly encouraged about missional churches that are sprining up all across our nation. So, I wouldn’t want to end here just with some of the other things we’ve talked about—alarming trends, etc. I’d like to says that I’m actually more encouraged today than I’ve ever been in my life in regard to what God’s doing in raising up his Church in the US.

Adrian
Excellent! Praise God for that. We wish you all the success in the future, John, and I look forward to hearing more about what goes on in the years to come when you’ve reached those 100 cities.

John
Yes, thank you, Adrian.

Adrian

Labels: Interviews, John Lanferman, Newfrontiers, TOAM07

Next week the main Newfrontiers International conference of the year starts. To whet your appetite, I thought I'd share the transcript of an interview I did at Together On A Mission 2007 with John Lanferman. The audio for this interview is also available here.

John oversees a team of leaders who serve the churches in the Newfrontiers—USA family. His primary focus is leadership training, church planting, and supporting churches in the States. John and his wife, Linda, are a part of Jubilee Church in St. Louis, Missouri. His blog is at http://johnlanferman.blogspot.com/.

If you can't make it to this year's TOAM conference, I will once again be live-blogging it right here. It's still not too late to arrange to listen to one of Mark Driscoll's other speaking engagements in the UK.

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Adrian
Hi everyone. This is Adrian Warnock here again. I’m here at Together on a Mission, together with John Lanferman. John leads the work of Newfrontiers in the USA. I would like to ask him a little bit about the conference, and also his work overseas, because I’m aware that a lot of you are probably thinking, “Well, this Newfrontiers thing—it’s all well and good because it’s over in the UK†— where things are perhaps a little bit different. So, John, first of all, how are you enjoying the conference?

John
I think it’s magnificent. The preaching has been outstanding. The worship is amazing. God’s presence is here. He is speaking personally to people. He’s speaking to us as a family of churches as well. It’s wonderful to welcome 53 different nations into this setting.

Adrian
Yes, I think it’s so important to underline that, isn’t it, because people probably think, “Oh, it’s just a British thing,†when really it’s almost like a world conference, isn’t it?

John
Absolutely, it is. And just to make connection with people and find out what’s happening in their nations, and to see that we’re really on the same page as it relates to the kingdom of God. There’s not really a national distinction there when it comes to that.

Adrian
Yeah, I know. It’s been great. Some of the preachers have come from South Africa and . . .

John
Absolutely.

Adrian
You’ve got guys from Africa, other parts, all over, haven’t we here?

John
Yes, it’s wonderful.

Adrian
I guess really as well, this conference is perhaps a little bit different to some other conferences, isn’t it, in terms of the family feel. I don’t know how easily we can get that across to people who are at home reading the blog.

John
I think that’s the interesting thing. When you come together and you see people, and some of the people, of course, we know as well. But even in meeting new people, there’s a sense of community that seems to be automatic, and it’s just great to see people mixing it up, enjoying each other.

Adrian
Yeah, I think that’s right, because that doesn’t happen everywhere we go in conferences, does it?

John
No, I know some conferences that you may visit, and some I’ve visited in the US — I mean, you arrive. If you don’t know anyone or if you have a friend or two, you’re really not connected. There’s not a sense of togetherness on the mission . . .

Adrian
Yeah . . .

John
. . . and you break off, you go to lunch, or you go to your hotel room. There’s a sense of — you’re there to pick up information primarily and download information that maybe you can employ in your own situation.

Adrian
Yeah.

John
But here it’s a totally different feel.

Adrian
That’s right. And there’s all these kind of little mini-meetings going on in all the breaks, isn’t there? I mean, the little breaks sort of get eaten up, don’t they?

John
All the time.

Adrian
(Laughing). And we’re sitting here and we’ve got what? I don’t know—another hour or so?—before the next session. And you squeeze in a meeting, don’t you?